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May 1

"The Tay Bridge Disaster" really that bad of a poem?

People say "The Tay Bridge Disaster" by William McGonagall is a bad poem, but is there any explanation as to why? Our article just says in a conclusary fashion that it has been "lampooned by critics as one of the worst poems in the English language." The source that supports the claim just calls McGonagall a writer of "juvenile, arrhythmic poems", but there's nothing on the poem itself, and the source isn't really a poetry analysis source anyways. I was able to find one source that says "parallelism must be seen to have arisen accidentally. Rhyme that appears forced runs the risk of being subject to negative evaluation." Any help? I don't think we have an article on parallelism. Therapyisgood (talk) 01:36, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well for starters, most of it doesn't scan; where is the metre? Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:06, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For continuation, even this defence of McGonagall admits that bathetic rhymes are characteristic of his style. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 10:22, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also see the Poetry Foundation's definition of doggerel, which describes it as "traditionally characterized by clichés, clumsiness, and irregular meter", and illustrates this with an excerpt from the Tay Bridge Disaster. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 10:55, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This biographical introduction to McGonagall's works says:

He shared many of the faults of Mr Pooter, being pompous, self-important, humourless and the butt of jokes he didn't understand...

From the day divine inspiration to write poetry descended upon McGonagall, he was addicted to rhyme and the same rhyme pairs would often appear in his writing - if a poem involved the queen, she'd be somewhere "green" or "wondrous to be seen”. Although rhyming was a compulsion with McGonagall, scansion was completely alien to him. The long rambling lines, ending with that vital rhyme, are the most recognisable feature of his work and sometimes reach prodigious proportions...

The third element in McGonagall's poetic technique - or lack of it - is his extraordinary ability to puncture whatever pathos he may have been able to create by the addition of some extraneous fact or an inappropriate phrase...

Hunt, Chris (2007). "Introduction". William McGonagall: Collected Poems. Edinburgh: Birlinn Limited. ISBN 978-1841584775.

Alansplodge (talk) 11:03, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alan's quote is addressing the same point as the one about "parallelism", in the source you found. Parallelism being apparently used as a general term for rhyme, alliteration, consonance, assonance etc. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:11, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In McGonagall's defence:

There is little meaningful distinction between McGonagall's style and content and that of a hawker of street verse in 1830s or 1860s Scotland... other than McGonagall's far greater reputation and longevity.

Blair, Kirstie (2019). Working Verse in Victorian Scotland: Poetry, Press, Community. Oxford University Press. p. 178. ISBN 978-0198843795.

Alansplodge (talk) 11:35, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"being...the butt of jokes he didn't understand." Ah yes, the "fault" of every bullied child. Anyway, writing any poetry is hard, even "bad" poetry is better than most of us will ever achieve, and memorable poetry is beyond even most professional poets. DuncanHill (talk) 11:45, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that he's included in a global encyclopedia would undoubtedly please him no end. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:02, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Having read the poem, I'd say the obvious reasons would be that it's really inconsistent in structure: inconsistent line length, inconsistent verse length, and inconsistent rhyming pattern. It also has a lot of repetition (for example "on the last Sabbath day of 1879" is used four times), but even that repetition isn't consistent enough to be part of the structure of the poem. Iapetus (talk) 09:31, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Given the question is inherently subjective, I'm treating as such to whatever extent my heart desires: it's very bad. It's not bad for its use of stock poetic conventions without demonstrating any understanding of why they're used, while simultaneously just, failing, to actually use them successfully. It's bad because it's boring and says nothing. Given it's longer than a few stanzas, I would expect a poem either to "tell a story" in the most abstract sense through elements like mood, perhaps by varying or elaborating upon said elements. Here, no connections are made that run deeper than the lines on which the words themselves appear. It just sounds like someone boring is talking to me about the boat, and there's no attempt to explore anything at any depth or breadth. Boat. Boat!

Boat. Remsense诉 23:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've always particularly enjoyed that branch of literary criticism which involves displaying the critic's complete failure to read the criticised work. There ain't a boat in it. DuncanHill (talk) 23:54, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If I said I meant to type "bridge" four times in a row but failed all four times because I was distracted, that sounds like an obvious lie and you wouldn't believe me. So, I'll just take the L on this one. Remsense诉 23:59, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what "take the L" means. In your defence, boats and bridges do perform the same function, so your confusion could be excused. DuncanHill (talk) 00:04, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Take the loss". The silver lining here is that my claimed QWERTial aphasia was probably as interesting as "The Tay Boat Disaster". Remsense诉 00:08, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I did that writing in my Dad's Filofax the other day. I said "I'll visit on Friday", and in the Friday section I wrote "Friday", instead of "Duncan". DuncanHill (talk) 00:16, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've just read the poem for the first time. Is he trying to rhyme Edinburgh with sorrow? And if so, how is he expecting each to be pronounced? Iapetus (talk) 09:18, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to mostly work, assuming both end with [rə] like I'd expect. Remsense诉 10:18, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Having past connections with Dundee, I'm very familiar with McGonagall (who remains a local celebrity there) and his 3-volume Poetic Gems collection is almost within arms' reach as I type.

One of McGonagall's positive features is that he documented (in appallingly bad verse) many events that were at the time locally newsworthy but which otherwise have faded from memory. Generally, he is faithful to facts as reported in the local press at the time, and the incongruity of poetising often mundane events is one source of the amusement his works afford.

In latter years it has been suggested that his apparent poetic ineptitude may have been deliberate, but more likely he genuinely lacked any literary discernment, something of a handicap in a Shakespearian actor and a self-proclaimed 'poet and tragedian.' {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.144.58 (talk) 05:45, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See, that's neat. To be clear, even bad boring art is worth an awful lot sometimes. :) Remsense诉 06:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Declaration of interest here - I am the Chris Hunt who's introduction to McGonagall's collected works is quoted above! The wiki answer to the question is that it's a bad poem because reliable sources say it is. Having read this poem in public on several occasions, I can tell you it's a great poem to perform live - but only if you do it for laughs, which I'm sure was not the intention of the original author. Chuntuk (talk) 14:54, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Chuntuk, I have used your learned text as a reference for a new section; The Tay Bridge Disaster#Criticism. I hope this satisfies Therapyisgood's original inquiry. Thanks all and feel free to edit if my modest efforts are lacking in any respect. Alansplodge (talk) 16:05, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why ♭ seems be more popular than ♯ ?

e.g. in the circle of fifths:

D
A & G
E & C
B & F
F♯ & B♭
C♯ & E♭
G♯/A♭ (they are the same note, but why called A♭ more often than G♯?)

also, in the diatonic scales:

C major/a minor (0)
G major/e minor (1♯) & F major/d minor (1♭)
D major/b minor (2♯) & B♭ major/g minor (2♭)
A major/f♯ minor (3♯) & E♭ major/c minor (3♭)
E major/c♯ minor (4♯) & A♭ major/f minor (4♭)
B major/g♯ minor (5♯) & D♭ major/b♭ minor (5♭)
F♯ major/d♯ minor/G♭ major/e♭ minor (6♯/6♭) (they are the same diatonic scale, but why G♭ major/e♭ minor (6♭) is used more often than F♯ major/d♯ minor (6♯)?

125.230.0.219 (talk) 03:48, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

G♯ and A♭ are the same key on most current keyboards, but they are not the same note in all tuning systems. In Pythagorean tuning, they are separated by a Pythagorean comma. --Lambiam 06:38, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I assume that the OP is mostly interested in Western common practice—12TET, normative music theory etc.

Let's look at the notes of F♯ major alongside those of G♭ major:

F♯, G♯, A♯, B, C♯, D♯, E♯

G♭, A♭, B♭, C♭, D♭, E♭, F

They're both equally pesky if E♯ or C♭ make you uncomfortable, of course. No double-sharps or double-flats which disqualify key signatures like G-flat minor, which requires B𝄫, E𝄫, as well as F♭. So that's not why.

I would surmise part of the reason why is that G♭ major is simply closer to other keys with which it may relate in a given piece, suite, etc. It's much more common to play around in the darkness of A♭ and D♭ major than worry about B major being annoying for everyone but the guitarist. B♭ minor is also a rather common key, because many instruments are tuned to B♭. Remsense诉 11:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This means in the circle of fifths, the 7 “normal” white keys (A, B, C, D, E, F, G), and the black keys, the two black keys which are “next to” the white keys in the circle of fifths, we use F# and Bb instead of Gb and A#, since F# and Bb are “next to” the white keys in the circle of fifths, i.e, they have distance of 1 to the “normal” white keys (B and F, respectively), but Gb and A# have distance of 5 to the “normal” white keys in the circle of fifths, similarly, C# and Eb both have distance of 2 to the “normal” white keys in the circle of fifths, but Db and D# have distance of 4 to the “normal” white keys in the circle of fifths, thus we use C# and Eb instead of Db and D#, but for the black key G#/Ab, this key is the “farest” key to the white keys in the circle of fifths, both G# and Ab have distance of 3 to the “normal” white keys in the circle of fifths, but why Ab is used more often than G#? 61.224.150.139 (talk) 03:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This question looks like the reverse of a question on this same reference desk that I asked on February 21, 2022. It was about why some people think it's okay to avoid flats and just use sharps in place of their flat enharmonics. Please check it out. Georgia guy (talk) 11:59, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Link: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 February 21 § Rules for how to name black keys in music. --Lambiam 14:30, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You've missed out mentioning C♯ major/A♯ minor, and C♭ major/A♭ minor (7♯/7♭). Three of these keys are well represented in the musical canon (including examples by Bach and Beethoven; see Overview of compositions with 7 accidentals), although for reasons I've never quite understood, A♯ minor is disfavoured almost to the point of invisibility. But not quite, as I've found a few examples in my travels (more than are shown in the linked list). Maybe your omission of these 7-accidental keys was a sort of mental bridge too far for you, and maybe that also explains why many people prefer flat keys over sharps. The physical shape of a battalion of ♯ signs might seem too brutal and threatening, compared with the softer, rounder, more swan-like ♭ signs. That's my theory. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:02, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@JackofOz: Regarding A♯ minor, I have a theory. C♯ major and A♭ minor make sense to use directly, because their parallel keys are normal keys with fewer accidentals, and using the seven-accidental keys in these cases avoids enharmonic shifting between parallel major and minor. C♭ major at least makes sense because of harp tuning, but you'll also notice it's significantly less common than C♯ major and A♭ minor. Meanwhile A♯ minor has neither driver pushing it into use, so it remains an extreme rarity. Double sharp (talk) 05:36, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

7# and 7b are rarely used, we usually use 5b in place of 7# and use 5# in place of 7b, since they are the same note, but 6# and 6b are also the same note. 61.224.150.139 (talk) 03:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, for the theoretical keys (8# and 8b), all of F-flat major, G-sharp major, D-flat minor have their own articles, but why E-sharp minor is only a redirect? (♭ seems be more popular than ♯) 61.224.150.139 (talk) 03:48, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This thread suffers from the fact that nobody has bothered to verify that the premise of the question is actually correct. What makes you believe flats are more frequently used than sharps? Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:46, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are two meanings of "popular", the word the OP used in his question. In the sense of liked or preferred, I can vouch that many people in my experience report a greater ease when playing pieces in flat keys compared with sharp keys. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:45, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The bit at the very end is definitely correct - Eb minor is more common than D# minor as a key signature because the accidentals are simpler (the raised 6th and 7th are C-natural and D-natural, as opposed to B-sharp and C-double-sharp). Gb major might be preferred by analogy, as any piece in a major key from the classical and romantic periods tends to spend some time in the relative minor. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 21:03, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, both of the natural major and the natural minor have no additional sharp/flat, i.e. the natural F# major and the natural D# minor have “just” this 6 sharps, and the natural Gb major and the natural Eb minor have “just” this 6 flats, but if you use the harmonic scale or the melodic scale, you will have additional sharps/flats, harmonic major has an additional flat in the 6th note, harmonic minor has an additional sharp in the 7th note, melodic major (descending) has two additional flats in the 6th and 7th notes, melodic minor (ascending) has two additional sharps in the 6th and 7th notes, thus:

	natural	harmonic	melodic
F# major	6#	5#	6# (ascending) / 4# (descending)
D# minor	6#	5#, 1##	7#, 1## (ascending) / 6# (descending)
Gb major	6b	5b, 1bb	6b (ascending) / 7b, 1bb (descending)
Eb minor	6b	5b	4b (ascending) / 6b (descending)

and the F# major together with the D# minor, and the Gb major together with the Eb minor, will use the same number of sharps/flats. 61.224.150.139 (talk) 03:43, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fortunately, IMSLP uses software like Wikipedia, so that entries can be categorised in many ways, including by key signature. Like WP, it depends on volunteers actually doing the work, so who knows whether the results of any analysis are mathematically meaningful. But, fwiw, here's what I found:
There are 50,618 pieces in flat keys, compared with only 39,190 in sharp keys. Also, 17,701 in neutral keys (predominantly C major, 73%).

80,554 pieces in major keys, compared with only 26,955 in minor keys.
Looking at numbers of accidentals in key signatures, there's an unsurprising preference for fewer as compared to more:
Neutral: keys 17,701

1 accidental: 33,276

2 accidentals: 24,391

3 accidentals: 19,205

4 accidentals: 9,027

5 accidentals: 2,688

6 accidentals: 796

7 accidentals: 161
That trend also applies when applied only to major keys, or only to minor keys.
Looking at preference of major over minor within the above split, there's a very stable trend up to 5 accidentals:
Neutral keys: 73.2% major

1 accidental: 74.7% major

2 accidentals: 74.9% major

3 accidentals: 78.8% major

4 accidentals: 72.9% major

5 accidentals: 74.4% major
But for the keys with 6 or 7 accidentals, it's roughly equal:
6 accidentals: 52.9% major

7 accidentals: 52.8% major.
I surmise that that's because these keys are predominantly found in exercises and studies for advanced pianists, and are not even taught to beginners.
None of above are terribly surprising, but they do perhaps serve to confirm the OP's premise, inter alia. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:13, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
JackofOz, that site is for old (pre-1929 for the time being; it will go up by one year every year) music. In modern popular music sharp keys appear to be more popular. Georgia guy (talk) 22:29, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you talking about score music or recorded popular music? The latter generally has much less notational or metatextual reason to strongly favor one enharmonic spelling over another. While B♭ vs. A♯ matters rather more for woodwind players reading from a score, it matters potentially not at all to a guitarist in a context where notation itself was largely optional and there generally wasn't expected to be a tonal relationship between discrete pieces. In any case, I wouldn't say it's "more popular" because it's simply not a choice that matters, so what the sticker on the fretboard (etc. etc.) says is perfectly serviceable as a label. Plus, of course, the most useful analysis of pop songs deriving in some way from the common practice would likely prefer one over the other regardless, but the distinction is often not prioritized by people entering the data. Remsense诉 22:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I found a formula, x+y gives the number of sharps/flats in this key (positive number means sharps, negative number means flats), if x+y is > +7 or < -7, then this key is only a theoretical key):

x:

B#: +10

E#: +9

A#: +8

D#: +7

G#: +6

C#: +5

F#: +4

B: +3

E: +2

A: +1

D: 0

G: -1

C: -2

F: -3

Bb: -4

Eb: -5

Ab: -6

Db: -7

Gb: -8

Cb: -9

Fb: -10

y:

Lydian: +3

Ionian: +2

Mixolydian: +1

Dorian: 0

Aeolian: -1

Phrygian: -2

Locrian: -3

not count the theoretical keys (i.e. the keys with more than 7 sharps/flats), there are 15*7 = 105 possible keys (from B# Locrian (7#) to Fb Lydian (7b)). 61.224.150.139 (talk) 04:11, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So Fb Locrian is the most theoretical key? With 13 flat symbols and you can't even remove some of them with the star=## symbol? I suppose you could have Bbbbbbbbbbbb Locrian but that's just ridiculous. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:11, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I don't know. What's wrong with taking, say, an ascending C major scale and with a judicious use of multiple accidentals make it sound like a descending F-sharp minor scale. Simple, really:

C♯♯♯♯♯♯ D♯♯♯ E♭♭ F♭♭♭♭♭♭ G♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭ A♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭ B♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭ C♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:12, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why not add one more sharp symbol to B# Lydian and call it B# Superlydian, 15 sharps for B# Ultralydian and 16 sharps for B# Hyperlydian, then add one repeat per sharp after running out of Greek and Latin like Hyperhyperhyperhyperhyperhyperhyperhyperhyperlydian? And add some flat modes with names like Infralocrian, Sublocrian and Hypolocrian? Maybe Hypsolocrian and Perlydian too. And Superphyrgian is just Locrian. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:00, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The invention of writing has been a disaster. Remsense诉 23:39, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Funniest thing I've read this year. :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:47, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually Superphyrgian would be minus 1, unless you want super to mean "more extreme in any direction" in which case you couldn't have unambiguous Superdorian anymore. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:22, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What is “superlydian”, a key with much more sharps than dorian (the medium key)? Also “superlocrian” should be a key with much more flats than dorian (the medium key)? 2402:7500:943:D56F:909B:9877:85C8:AFAA (talk) 02:36, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I propose an SI metric prefix system for this. Rather than Superlydian, Ultralydian, and Hyperlydian, we use Kilolydian, Megalydian, and Gigalydian. Also, instead of Infralocrian, Sublocrian, and Hypolocrian, we use Millilocrian, Microlocrian, and Nanolocrian. GalacticShoe (talk) 06:38, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since Dorian mode is the “middle” mode, we compare it with other modes:

(♯ and ♭ are dual, 2 and 7 are dual, 3 and 6 are dual, 4 and 5 are dual)

Dorian is self-dual, Mixolydian mode and Aeolian mode are dual, Ionian mode and Phrygian mode are dual, etc.

♯3 -> Mixolydian mode / ♭6 -> Aeolian mode (natural minor and descending melodic minor)
♯3, ♯7 -> Ionian mode (natural major and ascending melodic major) / ♭2, ♭6 -> Phrygian mode
♯3, ♯4, ♯7 -> Lydian mode / ♭2, ♭5, ♭6 -> Locrian mode
♯3, ♯4, ♯5, ♯7 -> Lydian augmented scale / ♭2, ♭4, ♭5, ♭6 -> Altered scale
♯7 -> Jazz minor scale (ascending melodic minor) / ♭2 -> Dorian ♭2 scale
♯3, ♯4 -> Acoustic scale / ♭5, ♭6 -> Half diminished scale
(♯4 / ♭5) -> ? (two types of Dorian harmonic scale?) (the case ♯4 is Ukrainian Dorian scale)
♯3, ♭2 -> ? (Mixolydian harmonic scale?) / ♯7, ♭6 -> ? (Aeolian harmonic scale?) (harmonic minor)
♯3, ♯7, ♭6 -> ? (Ionian harmonic scale?) (harmonic major) / ♯3, ♭2, ♭6 -> Phrygian dominant scale (Phrygian harmonic scale?)
♯4, ♯7 -> ? (Lydian harmonic scale?) / ♭2, ♭5 -> ? (Locrian harmonic scale?)
♯4, ♯7, ♭6 -> Hungarian minor scale / ♯3, ♭2, ♭5 -> Oriental mode
♯3, ♭6 -> Aeolian dominant scale (descending melodic major) (it is self-dual)
♯3, ♯7, ♭2, ♭6 -> Double harmonic scale (it is self-dual)

Or remove two keys to get pentatonic scale:

Remove 3 and 6 -> suspended pentatonic scale (商 (shāng) mode) (it is self-dual)
Remove 3 and 7 -> blues major pentatonic scale (徵 (zhǐ) mode) / Remove 2 and 6 -> minor pentatonic scale (羽 (yǔ) mode)
Remove 4 and 7, ♯3 -> major pentatonic scale (宮 (gōng) mode) / Remove 2 and 5, ♭6 -> blues minor pentatonic scale (角 (jué) mode)

49.217.136.82 (talk) 08:30, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They are called “harmonic” scales since they contain all seven types of seventh chords (like the harmonic major scale and the harmonic minor scale).

e.g. for Dorian ♯4:

1st: Minor seventh chord
2nd: Dominant seventh chord
3rd: Major seventh chord
4th (start with the ♯4): Diminished seventh chord
5th: Minor major seventh chord
6th: Half-diminished seventh chord
7th: Augmented major seventh chord

and for Dorian ♭5:

1st: Half-diminished seventh chord
2nd: Minor seventh chord
3rd: Minor major seventh chord
4th: Dominant seventh chord
5th (start with the ♭5): Augmented major seventh chord
6th: Diminished seventh chord
7th: Major seventh chord

49.217.136.82 (talk) 08:55, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In contrast, the original Dorian mode (and the natural major scale and the natural minor scale) does not contain minor major seventh chord and augmented major seventh chord and diminished seventh chord. 49.217.136.82 (talk) 09:27, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Both major scale and minor scale have natural, harmonic, and melodic:

	major	minor
natural	Ionian (start with C, use all white keys)	Aeolian (start with A, use all white keys)
harmonic	♭6	♯7
melodic	ascending: same as natural / descending: ♭6, ♭7	ascending: ♯6, ♯7 / descending: same as natural

2402:7500:92D:FD81:EC83:9EB4:F66F:5867 (talk) 09:17, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since Dorian mode and Aeolian dominant scale (Dorian ♯3 ♭6 scale) and double harmonic scale (Dorian ♭2 ♯3 ♭6 ♯7 scale) are self-dual, but no harmonic scales are self-dual, thus we list the scales and the triad qualities and the seventh chord qualities in each scale degrees of Dorian mode and Aeolian dominant scale (Dorian ♯3 ♭6 scale) and double harmonic scale (Dorian ♭2 ♯3 ♭6 ♯7 scale) and the two types of Dorian harmonic scale: (for Dorian mode and Aeolian dominant scale and double harmonic scale, the 2nd/7th scales, the 3rd/6th scales, the 4th/5th scales, are dual scales, and for the scale of a type of Dorian harmonic scale, its dual is the 2nd/7th scale, the 3rd/6th scale, the 4th/5th scale, of another Dorian harmonic scale)

scale
scale	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th
Dorian mode	Dorian mode	Phrygian mode	Lydian mode	Mixolydian mode	Aeolian mode natural minor descending melodic minor	Locrian mode	Ionian mode natural major ascending melodic major
Aeolian dominant scale Dorian ♯3 ♭6 scale	Aeolian dominant scale descending melodic major Aeolian ♯3 scale Mixolydian ♭6 scale Hindu scale (Dorian ♯3 ♭6 scale)	half diminished scale Locrian ♮2 scale Aeolian ♭5 scale	altered scale altered dominant scale super Locrian scale Locrian ♭4 scale	jazz minor scale ascending melodic minor	Dorian ♭2 scale Phrygian ♮6 scale	Lydian augmented scale Lydian ♯5 scale	acoustic scale overtone scale Lydian dominant scale Lydian ♭7 scale Mixolydian ♯4 scale
double harmonic scale Dorian ♭2 ♯3 ♭6 ♯7 scale	double harmonic scale double harmonic major scale (Dorian ♭2 ♯3 ♭6 ♯7 scale)	Lydian ♯2 ♯6 scale	Ultraphrygian scale	Hungarian minor scale double harmonic minor scale Gypsy minor scale	Oriental mode	Ionian ♯2 ♯5 scale	Locrian 3 7 scale
Dorian harmonic (♯4) scale	Ukrainian Dorian scale Romanian minor scale altered dorian scale (Dorian harmonic (♯4) scale)	Phrygian dominant scale altered Phrygian scale dominant ♭2 ♭6 scale (in jazz) Freygish scale (Phrygian harmonic (♯3) scale)	Lydian harmonic (♯2) scale	Super-Locrian 7 scale altered diminished scale	harmonic minor (Aeolian harmonic (♯7) scale)	Locrian harmonic (♮6) scale	Ionian harmonic (♯5) scale augmented major scale
Dorian harmonic (♭5) scale	Dorian harmonic (♭5) scale Locrian ♮2 ♮6 scale	altered dominant ♮5 scale Phrygian harmonic (♭4) scale	melodic minor ♯4 scale Lydian harmonic (♭3) scale	Mixolydian harmonic (♭2) scale	Lydian augmented ♯2 scale	Locrian harmonic (7) scale	harmonic major (Ionian harmonic (♭6) scale)

triad qualities
scale	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th
Dorian mode	minor triad	minor triad	major triad	major triad	minor triad	diminished triad	major triad
Aeolian dominant scale Dorian ♯3 ♭6 scale	major triad	diminished triad	diminished triad	minor triad	minor triad	augmented triad	major triad
double harmonic scale Dorian ♭2 ♯3 ♭6 ♯7 scale	major triad	major triad	minor triad	minor triad	major triad ♭5	augmented triad	sus2 triad ♭5
Dorian harmonic (♯4) scale	minor triad	major triad	major triad	diminished triad	major triad	diminished triad	augmented triad
Dorian harmonic (♭5) scale	diminished triad	minor triad	minor triad	major triad	augmented triad	diminished triad	major triad

seventh chord qualities
scale	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th
Dorian mode	minor seventh chord	minor seventh chord	major seventh chord	dominant seventh chord	minor seventh chord	half-diminished seventh chord	major seventh chord
Aeolian dominant scale Dorian ♯3 ♭6 scale	dominant seventh chord	half-diminished seventh chord	half-diminished seventh chord	minor major seventh chord	minor seventh chord	augmented major seventh chord	dominant seventh chord
double harmonic scale Dorian ♭2 ♯3 ♭6 ♯7 scale	major seventh chord	minor seventh chord	major sixth chord	minor major seventh chord	dominant seventh flat five chord	augmented major seventh chord	sus2 triad add7 ♭5
Dorian harmonic (♯4) scale	minor seventh chord	dominant seventh chord	major seventh chord	diminished seventh chord	minor major seventh chord	half-diminished seventh chord	augmented major seventh chord
Dorian harmonic (♭5) scale	half-diminished seventh chord	minor seventh chord	minor major seventh chord	dominant seventh chord	augmented major seventh chord	diminished seventh chord	major seventh chord

49.217.136.82 (talk) 07:06, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I want to call Aeolian dominant scale (Dorian ♯3 ♭6 scale) as “anti-Dorian scale”, since it and Dorian scale are the only two scales which are self-dual. 2402:7500:92D:FD81:B999:FD88:1DE7:D5D6 (talk) 08:26, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dual triads:

major triad ~ minor triad

diminished triad (self-dual)

augmented triad (self-dual)

Dual seventh chords:

major seventh chord (self-dual)

minor seventh chord (self-dual)

dominant seventh chord ~ half-diminished seventh chord

diminished seventh chord (self-dual)

augmented major seventh chord ~ minor major seventh chord 2402:7500:92D:FD81:B999:FD88:1DE7:D5D6 (talk) 08:32, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dual keys:

D (self-dual)

A ~ G

E ~ C

B ~ F

F♯ ~ B♭

C♯ ~ E♭

G♯ ~ A♭ (the same key, self-dual)

D♯ ~ D♭

A♯ ~ G♭

E♯ ~ C♭

B♯ ~ F♭

49.217.136.82 (talk) 08:54, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We can have a table of all 105 non-theoretical keys:

B♯ Locrian	E♯ Phrygian	A♯ Aeolian	D♯ Dorian	G♯ Mixolydian	C♯ Ionian	F♯ Lydian
E♯ Locrian	A♯ Phrygian	D♯ Aeolian	G♯ Dorian	C♯ Mixolydian	F♯ Ionian	B Lydian
A♯ Locrian	D♯ Phrygian	G♯ Aeolian	C♯ Dorian	F♯ Mixolydian	B Ionian	E Lydian
D♯ Locrian	G♯ Phrygian	C♯ Aeolian	F♯ Dorian	B Mixolydian	E Ionian	A Lydian
G♯ Locrian	C♯ Phrygian	F♯ Aeolian	B Dorian	E Mixolydian	A Ionian	D Lydian
C♯ Locrian	F♯ Phrygian	B Aeolian	E Dorian	A Mixolydian	D Ionian	G Lydian
F♯ Locrian	B Phrygian	E Aeolian	A Dorian	D Mixolydian	G Ionian	C Lydian
B Locrian	E Phrygian	A Aeolian	D Dorian	G Mixolydian	C Ionian	F Lydian
E Locrian	A Phrygian	D Aeolian	G Dorian	C Mixolydian	F Ionian	B♭ Lydian
A Locrian	D Phrygian	G Aeolian	C Dorian	F Mixolydian	B♭ Ionian	E♭ Lydian
D Locrian	G Phrygian	C Aeolian	F Dorian	B♭ Mixolydian	E♭ Ionian	A♭ Lydian
G Locrian	C Phrygian	F Aeolian	B♭ Dorian	E♭ Mixolydian	A♭ Ionian	D♭ Lydian
C Locrian	F Phrygian	B♭ Aeolian	E♭ Dorian	A♭ Mixolydian	D♭ Ionian	G♭ Lydian
F Locrian	B♭ Phrygian	E♭ Aeolian	A♭ Dorian	D♭ Mixolydian	G♭ Ionian	C♭ Lydian
B♭ Locrian	E♭ Phrygian	A♭ Aeolian	D♭ Dorian	G♭ Mixolydian	C♭ Ionian	F♭ Lydian

49.217.136.82 (talk) 07:45, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, F♭ Locrian has the key signature the same as G-double-flat major and E-double-flat minor (i.e. 13 flats), and B♯ Lydian has the key signature the same as F-double-sharp major and D-double-sharp minor (i.e. 13 sharps), thus they are extremely theoretical keys and seldom used. 2402:7500:943:D56F:909B:9877:85C8:AFAA (talk) 02:33, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Which of these 105 keys are more common to use? The natural major key is exactly the Ionian key, and the natural minor key is exactly the Aeolian key. 2402:7500:92D:FD81:EC83:9EB4:F66F:5867 (talk) 08:04, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Now I have 35 different scales in the above table (the scales in each scale degrees of Dorian mode and Aeolian dominant scale (Dorian ♯3 ♭6 scale) and double harmonic scale (Dorian ♭2 ♯3 ♭6 ♯7 scale) and the two types of Dorian harmonic scale), and for the Dorian mode and Aeolian dominant scale (Dorian ♯3 ♭6 scale) and double harmonic scale (Dorian ♭2 ♯3 ♭6 ♯7 scale) and the two types of Dorian harmonic scale, we can use D♯, G♯, C♯, F♯, B, E, A, D, G, C, F, B♭, E♭, A♭, D♭ as the keys, and can be converted to the scales in other scale degrees, there will be 35*15 = 525 non-theoretical keys (although some of them, such as D♯ Aeolian dominant scale, D♯ Dorian harmonic (♯4) scale, D♭ Aeolian dominant scale, D♭ Dorian harmonic (♭5) scale, contain either double sharp or double flat). 2402:7500:92D:FD81:B999:FD88:1DE7:D5D6 (talk) 07:55, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please, I find the stuff that GalacticShoe wrote at 06:38 5 May 2024 to be just ridiculous! There are only 7 musical modes. Georgia guy (talk) 11:22, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Theoretically there's an extrapolatable logical order to which note gets the next sharp or flat right, so even though the key that is F♭ Locrian except the next letter gets another flat ("Fb Millilocrian") would be enharmonically equivalent to another key in one of the 7 modes and less than 14 accidentals it could also be the answer to "what's flatter than Locrian?" right? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:15, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

:P GalacticShoe (talk) 17:28, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hitler's employment

What did Adolf Hitler do for a living between his military service and 1933? Adolf Hitler's rise to power mentions him holding a minor government position in Braunschweig, starting c. 1932, and I assume he was provided for by Bavaria when in prison, but otherwise I don't have an idea how he lived. Did he earn enough royalties from Mein Kampf to live on? Was he paid by the Party? Nyttend (talk) 21:03, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More detail at Adolf Hitler's rise to power#From Armistice (November 1918) to party membership (September 1919). On discharge from the army, he was an intelligence agent for the miltary, spying on political extremists, where he came into contact with the DAP - German Workers' Party (later the National Socialists), By early 1920, he was the party's head of propaganda, presumably a paid role. Alansplodge (talk) 21:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To the Threshold of Power, 1922/33: Origins and Dynamics of the Fascist and National Socialist Dictatorships (pp. 331-333) clarifies that he was an agent while still an army NCO and agreed to join the DAP leadership in January 1920 because of impending military cutbacks (which implies that it was indeed a paid post, although I couldn't find anything that specifically says so). Alansplodge (talk) 21:45, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"You were supposed to investigate the DAP! Not join them!" JIP | Talk 06:43, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ian Kershaw has a couple of bits about this in Hubris. In the early 20s he had various well-to-do supporters who gave support in a variety of ways, accommodation, transport, hosting dinners, and cash. Later, as we enter the 30s Kershaw says "Hitler had from the earliest years of his 'career', as we have seen, been supported by generous donations from benefactors. But by the early 1930s he was less dependent on financial support from private patrons, even if his celebrity status now unquestionably brought him many unsolicited donations. His sources of income have remained largely in the dark". He didn't receive a salary or speaking fees from the party, but instead received "hidden fees" - expenses based on the size of the audience, again accommodation, transport, uniforms, etc. By '32 he was earning a lot from his book, articles for newspapers and magazines, interview fees, etc. DuncanHill (talk) 12:47, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've not yet read it, but Pool, James; Pool, Suzanne (1979). Who Financed Hitler; The Secret Funding Of Hitler's Rise To Power, 1919-1933. Macdonald and Jane's. ISBN 0-354-04395-1. looks well-worth a go. DuncanHill (talk) 13:02, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Which points out, that in 1919, "Hitler was still on the full-time payroll of the Reichswehr as a political agent." Modocc (talk) 21:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, but it was after he left the military that is the mystery. Alansplodge (talk) 22:09, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I was unaware that he'd remained in the military after the war (I didn't read the earlier section of the article, and figured he'd left the army soon after the Armistice, if not sooner), so I didn't know that he remained in the Army after the war's end. Thus "he remained in the military" actually answers part of what I was looking for, even though it doesn't exactly answer the question. Nyttend (talk) 03:19, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nyttend, I have added a brief note to the article directly after the text which states that he was discharged from the army in March 1920 and began full-time work for the Nazi Party:

Although the NSDAP claimed that Hitler received no income from them and lived on the fees he received from public speaking at non-party events, he was actually supported financially by several wealthy patrons and party sympathisers.

I have referenced it to Hitler 1889-1936: Hubris (pp. 159-160) by Ian Kershaw, which you can read on archive.org if you want more detail. Trust this is adequate. My thanks to DuncanHill for the reference. Alansplodge (talk) 15:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We have an article Adolf Hitler's wealth and income which is particularly lacking for the period of this question. DuncanHill (talk) 22:24, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have attempted to fill the gap in that article, but it needs a lot more work. feel free to chip in. Alansplodge (talk) 17:24, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

May 2

Profile painting of a man wearing a turban or similar in a blue background

Hello, I've seen a lot of time ago a picture of man, facing left or right, possibly with a beard, eyes closed, wearing a peculiar hat in a blue backgound. Could be a painting or a colored photo, can't really say. I've looking for painting of doges, sultans, popes with no results. Could you please help me? Thanks in advance. Carnby (talk) 10:13, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Carnby, would you happen to remember any details of where you saw this picture, or roughly what the hat may have looked like? No worries if not, just wanted to see if I could narrow it down. GalacticShoe (talk) 16:35, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe have a look through Category:Portraits of sultans of the Ottoman Empire? You're not giving us much to go on. Alansplodge (talk) 22:07, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I know you've mentioned paintings of doges already, but it wouldn't happen to be File:Marco Barbarigo.jpg, would it? Man in profile, peculiar hat, on a blue background, only missing the optional beard and closed eyes (although it's somewhat difficult to discern whether his eyes are open or closed from a distance.) GalacticShoe (talk) 23:22, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Alansplodge@GalacticShoe Thanks for your efforts. I meant something like this. Hope it helps.-- Carnby (talk) 21:28, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

May 3

Women trafficked to the harems in the 20th-century

Hello, I have read about slavery in Saudi Arabia and the Trucial states, which ended in the 1960s. One aspect of this was the use of female slaves as concubines in harems, which ocurred until the 1960s. What I wonder about is: were there any European women who fell victims to this slave trade in the 20th-century? That is the period of 1900 until the 1960s, when slavery was abolished.

The text books I read were not very clear: it was noted that European women were the most expensive in the 19th-century, but in the 20th-century the only slave trade described were the Red Sea slave trade. It was briefly mentioned that a small minority of the slaves were European, but only in passing.

Is it known if there were any trafficking of European female slaves to the Arabian Peninsula in the 1930s, 1940s or 1950s? Perhaps reports of trafficking in European women at the time? Thanks--92.35.238.97 (talk) 00:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From the late 19th century through the 1960s, that would have been called "White Slavery" and was a perennial topic of sensationalistic newpaper headlines and highly fictionalized accounts in pulp men's adventure magazines. Around 1980, I actually read parts of a book (probably published in the 1960s or early 1970s) about "white slavery" in the Arab world, but I have no idea now of the title or author, and it focused more on North Africa than the Gulf. As far as I can remember, many of the cases were about young Western European women who were kind of blackmailed into sex-trafficking. Their situations were sad, but according to the author (who had a definite personality in his writing), many of them had made stupid decisions along the way and/or been cast aside by their families. A big thing in the book was "photo slavery", which has resemblances to today's manipulations of getting someone to send a nude selfie, and using that one to blackmail her into sending even more, but of course without smartphones, and the women didn't take their own photos. I don't think there's anything about it on Wikipedia, and I can't find any way to search for it specifically on Google. AnonMoos (talk) 12:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I am aware of that term, and that trafficking was sensationalized, but that was more about victims of the sex trafficking to brothels. I was specifically asking about European women trafficked to harems in the Arabian Peninsula in 1900-1960s, where slavery was in fact still legal at the time, and women were indeed concubines (sex slaves) in the harems at that time period. Slavery was abolished in Saudi Arabia and Yemen in 1962, in the Trucial States/United Arab Emirates in 1963, in Oman in 1970, and female sex slaves/concubines were a reality in that region. I am aware that European women were trafficked there historically, but did that still hapen in the 20th-century? --92.35.238.97 (talk) 14:27, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was domestic "white slavery" and international "white slavery"; the International Agreement for the suppression of the White Slave Traffic was aimed at the latter... AnonMoos (talk) 15:52, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I expect that law could be used against it. But it still speak mainly of the illegal sex trafficking to brothels, rather than the chattel slavery to the harems which were still legal in the Arabian Peninsula at the time. Are there any cases known in the 1930s-1960s were it is confirmed that European women were sold to the harems in this time period? --92.35.238.97 (talk) 18:57, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Declining numbers of US lawyers

Since 2020, and for the first time in 100 years, the number of active lawyers in the U.S. has been decreasing: ABA National Lawyer Population Survey. Do we know why? Do we have articles addressing this trend? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 10:15, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would think the pandemic might have something to do with it. 2A00:23C4:79CD:B301:65BA:2E7F:4E84:886 (talk) 11:53, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why would the number of lawyers decrease during the pandemic? Still, to support your assumption, "from 2022 to 2023, the number of active lawyers counted by the survey rose slightly, by just over 4,000, or three-tenths of one percent" (Source). So it's growing again but:

The number of lawyers in 2023 is still 1.6% below 2019 (1,352,077),
It only grew by +0.3% in 2023, which is the second lowest growth rate since 1955 (after +0.1% in 2002 and excluding the 3 years of decline)

I also found that the median real incomes of lawyers have been declining and "Between 2008 and 2019, lawyers’ income share of the national gross domestic product fell from 1.64% to 1.32% because clients purchased lawyers’ services less often.". a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 12:08, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This may be more related to demographics than anything else. For example, [1] shows that in the UK the number of practising solicitors and barristers over the nine quarters from Q4 2021 to Q4 2023 went down>up>up>down>up>down>up>down. There was a drop of 11,500 (about 1/2 per cent) between Q4 2021 and Q1 2022, and from Q1 2022 to Q4 2023 the number rose by 21,900. 2A00:23C4:79CD:B301:65BA:2E7F:4E84:886 (talk) 12:38, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Data since August 2011 shows a linear growth of practising solicitors in England and Wales. However, the process to become a solicitor was reformed and simplified in 2021. Without this reform, what would be the numbers? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 12:48, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you can pin this down specifically. For example, this [2] shows that the number of practising barristers in England and Wales has risen continuously between 2019 and 2023, but this increase represents only 800 individuals. There's an in-depth discussion at [3]. 2A00:23C4:79CD:B301:65BA:2E7F:4E84:886 (talk) 13:05, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Barristers are less than 10% of all UK lawyers (including also trademark & patent attorneys and CILEX lawyers). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:37, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe they keep working for a certain ex-president and get disbarred as a result? Chuntuk (talk) 14:42, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Chuntuk, I doubt it; per the ABA, just 2,791 lawyers were publicly disciplined in 2021, and just 479 of them were disbarred. Nyttend (talk) 21:09, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Danish Islands

Is there a collective name, modern or historical, for the Danish Islands between Schleswig and Scania? I'm referring to Zealand, Funen, Lolland, Falster and othe minor islands. Thank you! 195.62.160.60 (talk) 11:54, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not in English as far as I can tell. Alansplodge (talk) 14:22, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We got these here: Sydhavsøerne (informal) and South Funen Archipelago. Abductive (reasoning) 20:18, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The articles on these islands in the Danish Wikipedia do not reveal some collective name that covers all these islands. The article on Denmark itself mentions "the Danish islands" (de danske øer) lying between Kattegat and the Baltic Sea, but this descriptive name is IMO not meant to be a proper noun. Clearly, North Jutlandic Island, not lying between these sea areas, is also a Danish island. --Lambiam 20:57, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The term "Danish Archipelago" seems to have been invented in the lede of our article Geography of Denmark, and was marked as 'citation needed' a year ago. It's evidently not official or (from a web search) widely used, so "referred^{[citation needed]} to as the Danish Archipelago" should probably be deleted. Many English speakers familiar with Denmark would probably understand what it referred to, but others might confuse it with the Danish Wadden Sea Islands. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.144.58 (talk) 07:22, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

May 4

What industries dominate each U.S. state?

Wideul (talk) 11:19, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article from Forbes Magazine answers your question with data from 2022. Xuxl (talk) 17:14, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

American Constitution and Art support

Can the US government actually support certain artists or artistic genres over others, or does that violate the Constitution?
E.g. support a theater group over another group? 2A02:8071:60A0:92E0:88E7:5787:DF5B:D23F (talk) 11:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See National Endowment for the Arts. U.S. federal cultural funding is quite limited compared to some other countries, where there can be a Culture Minister or similar in the national cabinet... AnonMoos (talk) 12:06, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The US Constitution does not speak to the issue. Blueboar (talk) 12:11, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While the US Constitution does not speak to the general case, it's likely some aspects of the constitution can come into play in specific cases. For example, if Congress passed a law giving special preference to Christian music or something else that is specifically Christian for the reason that it is Christian, this is likely to come into conflict with most recentish interpretations of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution especially under the pre-Kennedy v. Bremerton School District Lemon Test. Nil Einne (talk) 14:13, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Constitution authorizes the Congress to protect copyrights and patents, but without any indication of preference for one kind over another. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:51, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Trump and Rubio

Let's suppose that Donald Trump selects fellow Floridian Marco Rubio as his running mate. Let's further suppose that Trump wins Florida. Wouldn't the Florida electors be constitutionally bound to vote for someone besides Rubio for Vice President? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:21, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, or not vote for Trump for president. Alternatively, Trump or Rubio may change residency to a different state which is what Cheney did when running with Bush. RudolfRed (talk) 02:17, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That would work. But if Rubio were the one to move, he would probably lose his Senate seat. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:03, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This non-American would love an explanation of the issue being discussed here. HiLo48 (talk) 04:17, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, the peculiarities of the electoral college. The issue is that the Twelfth Amendment to the United States Constitution says: "The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves. Hence, to avoid any problems, either Trump or Rubio would have to establish residence in a state other than Florida. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:44, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I see the issue now. HiLo48 (talk) 05:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If, to obviate this problem, Trump were to change his official State of residence from Florida to somewhere else, would the change of jurisdiction have consequences for some of the actual and potential civil and criminal court cases against him? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.175.176 (talk) 08:09, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not likely. Keep in mind that he's on trial in New York though he's no longer a resident. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if it's quite so simple. I mean it might not affect the trials themselves, but if it comes to it, Florida is known for their particularly strong exemptions for bankruptcy including the entirety of someone's homestead and pension even against civil judgments. O. J. Simpson was known for taking advantage of Florida's protections after the civil judgment against him. I have no idea if the entirety of Mar-a-Lago could be protected this way since Trump has been known to do weird stuff to reduce any tax which might not be so easily reversed. I'm not certain but suspect these pensions would be protected [4] and [5] although the federal government one could probably be modified by congress. I think Trumps previous bankruptcies have shown he knows how to use/abuse the system in other ways so I somewhat doubt even if it comes to it, this would be the way he'd handle things, but it is one possibility. Also while it may not affect any of the cases already filed, I think place of the defendant's residence can be a factor in where a federal trial might be held [6] [7] especially if the wrongdoing wasn't really committed in any particular place in the US. (State trials will always be in the state.) And of course, the place of the defendant's residence is often where they might do actions which will be cause for action e.g. the classified documents case is in Florida because Trump was allegedly improperly storing classified documents in his home in Florida. If Trump were to move somewhere else then future actions which might lead to cases against him would seem more likely to occur in this new state than in Florida. Nil Einne (talk) 11:09, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was pointed out in 2000 that George W. Bush and Dick Cheney were both mainly residents of Texas when the Republican ticket was formed (though Cheney claimed to live in Wyoming), but courts basically refused to hear the issue... AnonMoos (talk) 05:33, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

May 6

Scottish Episcopal Church

Our article says "at the Anglican Communion primates' meeting in October 2017 the Scottish Episcopal Church was suspended for three years from communion decision making on any issues of doctrine or polity". What if anything occurred at the expiry of this three-year period" ---- rossb (talk) 10:32, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably the Primus of the Scottish Episcopal Church was free to attend the 2024 Anglican Communion Primates' Meeting which was held in Rome (of all places) a couple of days ago. No news yet as far as I can see. Alansplodge (talk) 11:05, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi rossb! This recent Youtube video might have some tangential relevance to your query:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr_0io98-uA

{The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.175.176 (talk) 15:56, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Providing historical context for photographs of Berlin, Dresden, and Prague as Communism fell in 1989

In 1989, I traveled as a tourist to East and West Berlin, Dresden, and Prague and photographed events in the two weeks spanning the Fall of Communism. I have now had those negatives digitized and would like to upload them to Wikimedia under Creative Commons CC‑BY‑SA‑4.0 licenses. The images are probably equivalent in terms of content and scope to any currently on Wikipedia — and usually of far better technical and aesthetic quality. And a few images are quite likely unique.

Before making the circa 40 JPG scans public, I would like to better articulate their historical contexts. I am therefore looking for input from folk who can help explain these photographs. I think you would need a detailed knowledge of these events and/or know where to find such information. I can easily arrange Zoom video meetings if useful (my timezone is CEST). RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 10:59, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The editors over at the Commons have pitched in on this sort of project before, probably many more times than I happened to notice. Best to ask there. Abductive (reasoning) 08:36, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Please see: Commons Village Pump posting And respond there if necessary. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 11:18, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You may also consider posting this query on the German reference desk, called Auskunft, accessible on the en:RD under languages. By definition, many of the regulars there have experienced this era of recent history from either side of the iron curtain, be that in Berlin, Dresden or via printed / electronic media. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 15:07, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Have just done so here: German reference desk RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 19:28, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

May 9

Immanuel Kant, Benjamin Franklin

Did Benjamin Franklin and Kant know of each other, read each other's work, or meet each other or correspond?Rich (talk) 04:25, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kant never left his hometown of Königsberg, and Franklin spent exactly 2 months of 1766 in Germany, which I believe was almost entirely spent in Hanover. So the answer would seem to be no for "meet".
Kant famously described Franklin as "The Prometheus of Modern Times" (but not "The American Prometheus" afaik).
As for correspondence, I haven't found anything, or anything about Franklin being aware of Kant, though I would have to guess so if my life depended on it.

Remsense诉 04:38, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Slavery in Vietnam

Hello. Does anyone know when Chattel Slavery was abolished in Vietnam? I know slavery was abolished by France during the colonial period in Cambodia and Laos, so I assume it was the same in Vietnam, but I have not managed to find out any date. Does anyone know the year when slaver was abolished in Vietnam? Thanks--Aciram (talk) 12:02, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Following a 'Government of Admirals' generally in favour of respecting traditional institutions, Le Myre de Vilers, who in 1879 became the first civil Governor of Indochina, introduced the French Penal code and consequently officially abolished slavery."[8] --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 14:10, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah! Excellent. Thank you very much!--Aciram (talk) 16:41, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

May 10

German South West Africa

Does anyone know why specifically the Germans were "granted" South-West Africa? I know that they established Lüderitz in 1884, but I can't figure out why they settled there specifically, other than for strategic purposes and proximity to The Cape. Could anyone tell me if there was anything else to it? Thanks! Roosterchz (talk) 18:06, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it was just about the only coastal part of Africa that was unclaimed by other European powers. Having colonies was thought to be an essential accessory for any country wishing to be a major player on the world stage. The carve-up was confirmed by Berlin Conference in 1884/85. Alansplodge (talk) 19:34, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

With protectionism and the promulgation of Bismarck's anti-socialist law in 1878-1879, the colonial issue became a matter of interest to important sections of the German ruling classes... A colonial movement led by National Liberal and Free Conservative politicians began, which resulted in the foundation of the German Colonial Association on December 6, 1882... Colonialism became fashionable once the European powers partitioned Africa in earnest. Enthusiastic pressure-groups sprang up throughout Europe, agitating for colonies on economic grounds and as a sign of national greatness... The basic idea underlying this movement was that colonial expansion was ultimately only the logical complement to tariffs on industrial goods. While the duties created more avorable conditions for increasing German exports, entirely new markets were to be secured by the acquisition of colonies abroad...

German Imperialism in Africa: The Distorted Images of Cameroon, Namibia, Tanzania, and Togo

Alansplodge (talk) 19:51, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Avorable? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.175.176 (talk) 08:46, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[f]avorable. DuncanHill (talk) 11:38, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, a copying error. :-) Alansplodge (talk) 13:01, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Vlaamse Koning

Also, does anyone know if Leopold II could speak Dutch/Flemish at a native level? I would assume so however, I couldn't find a definitive answer. Thanks again! Roosterchz (talk) 18:48, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did he understand Dutch? [He almost certainly did.] Did he speak it? [Almost never.] It was clear that French was still his preferred tongue, as was also the case with his brother, Prince Philip. In stark contrast, Queen Marie-Henriette did make an effort to speak Dutch. This was particularly awkward at state functions at which the royal couple were both present, since the queen babbled away in one national language, while the king continued to talk exclusively in the other! This inability (or unwillingness) of the king and his brother to speak Dutch was occasionally a source of criticism in the Flemish press.

From Belgium and the Monarchy: From National Independence to National Disintegration (p. 49)

Alansplodge (talk) 19:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

May 11

East-west interstates go 10,20,30,40,64,70,80,90 with no 50

The main east-west interstates in the United States, in order from south to north, are 10, 20, 30, 40, 64, 70, 80, and 90; with no 50. The reason there is no I-50 is because they thought that I-50 and US 50 would likely go through the same areas, and that it would be confusing. But, according to the US 50 article, US 50 is north of I-64, and the missing I-50 would be between I-40 and I-64. What's wrong with what I said?? Georgia guy (talk) 19:07, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Two thoughts… first I-64 may have been an afterthought (ie added after they had decided to skip both I-50 and I-60 in the numbering)… second, it seems that I-64 was originally planed to run quite a bit further to the north than it does now. Blueboar (talk) 19:37, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Where was it initially planned to go?? It goes from Saint Louis through Louisville, Lexington, Huntington, Charleston, Beckley, Charlottesville, Richmond, and Norfolk. What cities was it initially planned to go through?? Georgia guy (talk) 19:53, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Feds say that even going through some of the same states as US-50 would have been confusing. Remember, they reversed the numbering system to avoid the US Route numbering system. And I-50 may have never reached the planning stage. Abductive (reasoning) 20:26, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

May 12

Unusual train for a bride

An item in This Week (16 March 2024) under the headline Getting married on a train reveals:

On 8 March, a couple who met on a train held their wedding on one. Leah and Vince exchanged rings as the train made its way from Paddington station in London towards Reading, England.

How did this happen? The Great Western Railway advertises adventures, but getting married hasn't been on their bucket list up to now. Under the marriage law, ceremonies can only take place in a "registered building", and, once registered, buildings must be available to everyone for a minimum of I think two years. This last provision scuppered Charles and Camilla Parker Bowles' plan to hold their 2005 "wedding" in Windsor Castle. They had to decamp to Windsor Guildhall across the road. Naturally enough, the Queen and Prince Philip boycotted the highly illegal ceremony. 92.25.130.132 (talk) 10:18, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On 4 April the Daily Mail reported:

They lived on limited rations, rainwater and melted snow, not knowing if they would survive or indeed if their country still existed. This powerful documentary hears from soldiers and civilians who were there, including a couple who married using tinfoil as rings.

All this leads me to the conclusion that these ceremonies are symbolic rather than legal. As you move up the social scale, although still illegal they become "official." Obvious examples are Charles, Camilla, Harry and Meghan. But nobody suggests that Harry and Meghan are not man and wife, the reason of course being their legal marriage three days before their official one. (Those words "legal" and "official" feature in the Sussexes' last pronouncement on the subject). On Tuesday Parliament passed a law proclaiming that Rwanda is a "safe country" for all time, a direction to our judges that can only be overturned by primary legislation. You can't get more official than that.

So how was it that newspapers were screaming "Harry and Meghan admit they lied about the date of their marriage"? How is it that Wikipedia is using these tales as "reliable sources"? The answer appears to be the gullibility of Wikipedia editors (and Martinevans123 has just come off a lengthy indefinite block). Said editors are aware that the Law Commission's recent report on marriage law explains that the presence or absence of witnesses has no effect whatsoever on the validity of a marriage, but trumpet the reverse as "truth" nevertheless. On the subject of "truth", the Guardian of 3 April quotes from a House of Commons briefing on the propagation of fake news by newspapers, holding up the reporting of the Hillsborough disaster as an example:

The Sun newspaper published a series of misleading and fabricated stories, placing much of the blame on Liverpool fans.

One headline ran:

THE TRUTH

Some fans picked pockets of victims
Some fans urinated on the brave cops

Page 19 of the Sun of 15 April 2024 claims "Charles, 71, is visiting Scotland for the first time since revealing his cancer diagnosis in February." The Coronation was on 2 June 1953, when he would, according to them, be no more than a year old. Are there any pictures of him there? Maybe not, because I remember watching it on television. On page 23 the same issue tells us:

They headed to Guarda, Portugal, for a more "affordable" life with daughters Emily, 12, and Yvie, ten...

But Lynn, 51, says dog Cu died, then cats Ponyo [!] and Bubbles were poisoned in January, amid a "storm of resentment" from villagers, who feared more outsiders could arrive.

Guarda is a city and administrative headquarters on the main railway line linking northern Portugal, Spain and France. Recently a refdesk enquirer was told a question about cities could not be answered unless the questioner proffered a definition of the word. This particular city was founded as a "guard" against incursions by the Moors, and its inhabitants will be in good mood today having yesterday celebrated the joyful return of democracy exactly half a century before on Thursday, 25 April 1974. Writing in the Daily Mail on 4 April 2024, Craig Brown says:

1. This year sees the 50th anniversary of the first appearance of many things, including the Rubik's cube, the VW Golf, Post-it notes, Bailey's Irish Cream, the Heimlich manoeuvre, and the Bay City Rollers. But the most ubiquitous of all these inventions is surely the bar code.

I was out of the country that year, so I missed all that, but I didn't miss everything - in August the headline on the newsstands was Nixon dimitiu-se.

If instead of passing the Rwanda bill on Tuesday the House of Lords had a second time replaced fiction with fact that would have been "double insistence." The word cropped up earlier when a litigant challenging in the High Court Camilla's use of the title "Queen" was ordered to sign a fake "insistence form" declaring that the case had no prospect of success, in default whereof the papers would be hurled into the wastebin. 80.43.67.153 (talk) 13:32, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At the weekend, Rishi Sunak was crowing that asylum seekers were crossing the border from Northern Ireland to the Republic, which he claimed was proof that his Rwanda law was "working". He now has to arrange meetings of his ministers with their Irish counterparts (at the request of the latter), who are not very pleased! I enjoyed reading the following anecdote in The Times of 3 April:

One may be apocryphal, as he doesn't name the local newspaper reporting that WH Auden, had been welcomed by "a small but enthusiastic crow", but the other was in our Sunday sibling paper, which in 1987 quoted the tycoon Armand Hammer as saying that Prince Charles was "a young man wise beyond his ears".

An item in this week's Mail on Sunday provides a pointer to why governments of both hues have been desperately covering up the Camillagate scandal for two decades.

Nigel Farage was offered a knighthood and ten peerages to hand out to his Brexit Party colleagues as part of an attempt to lure him into an election pact with the Tories, The Mail on Sunday has been told...

Mr Farage said: 'Our experience in 2019 showed us the Conservative Party cannot be trusted. They are totally devoid of principle and corrupt to the core...'

Honours are handed out by the monarch, so if the government of the day doesn't keep him onside it loses a negotiating ploy. I voted Conservative this morning. The government is bad, but the alternative is worse. 89.243.11.41 (talk) 12:08, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Re the comment above 89.243's, the Mail on Sunday suggests Camilla is in on the joke. It reports:

...she broke out in peals of laughter while examining a selection of pies.

'That looks just like my husband,' she joked, beckoning aides towards an anthropomorphic bake with oversized ears and a crown.

Keeping up the jollity, the paper's royal correspondent continues:

Typically, Camilla kept close as he greeted crowds and laughed when a fan shouted out 'Camilla is 17 now'

Ponder that for as long as you wish before reading the conclusion of the sentence below:

- causing momentary confusion, before she pointed to her pet Cavalier.

To round off the piece, the reporter declares:

...those who once held Camilla in high disdain, who considered her a threat to the monarchy's stability, should reflect that the nation owes her a debt.

If she wants her readers to think that, she's going about it the wrong way. Earlier, she comments "While they have different tastes, the couple are also both voracious readers."

Some years ago, Meghan, Duchess of Sussex, commented on social media that son "Archie has a voracious appetite for books." The Daily Telegraph's Camilla Tominey, (who used to accompany her namesake on royal tours), misreported Meghan as saying "Archie reads books voraciously", then accused her of lying because, of course, a child that age cannot read. The hashtag #Camilla Tominey has a voracious appetite for lying went viral shortly afterwards.

The scandal has not hit the newspapers, and it's fairly obvious why not. In the same Sunday newspaper, Peter Hitchens notes:

My brilliant Daily Mail colleague Alex Brummer disclosed last week how Labour's great thumping fist, Gordon Brown, suppressed Alex's scoop on Labour's secret 1997 plan to raid and wreck this country's once-superb private pension sector.

At that time, Alex recalled, he was working for the pro-Labour Guardian newspaper. When Brown learned that the paper intended to publish, he 'put intense pressure on the publication to hold fire or face dire consequences when New Labour came to power.

To its everlasting shame, the Guardian pulled the story.

This story [9] by (I kid you not) Camilla Turner in the Sunday Telegraph suggests that Justice Secretary Alex Chalk will lose his seat at the election. One less of the "gang of four" to worry about, then. 2.102.9.172 (talk) 12:35, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The other three, Camilla, Charles and Antonia Romeo, are pictured together in Friday's Daily Mail. There was no sign of Chalk in the Commons this afternoon to answer an urgent question from the shadow Justice Secretary, who said his "plan is to say nothing, hide everything, and try to get to the other side of the general election." Don't let Wikipedia editors be complicit in that.

In the Principal's Newsletter (October 2013, Issue 2) T Clark, the Principal of Skinners' Academy (which used to be in Stamford Hill but has moved down the road to Woodberry Down), wrote this:

Unfortunately, over the past few weeks we have had a few incidences of pupils or parents writing unpleasant messages on internet sites about other members of the Academy. I appreciate that such sites are very popular, but writing insulting or libellous comments about others, especially when they have no means of replying [think IRC], is unacceptable. The Academy policy is very clear on this: any pupil who writes something insulting on the internet about another pupil, a member of staff [think Fram] or the Academy, will be automatically suspended/excluded from the Academy (the law makes it absolutely clear that the Academy rules in such instances apply even when the pupil is off site); should a parent write anything insulting or libellous, the matter will always be reported to the police and to our solicitors, who have the right to prosecute.

In the past eleven years the law has been tightened considerably, and Trust and Safety has been reorganised accordingly. There is ample material for a reference. Today is the penultimate day of voting in the m:Universal Code of Conduct/Coordinating Committee/Election/2024. {ping|PBradley (WMF): Jbuatti (WMF): BChoo (WMF): Mdennis (WMF): JEissfeldt (WMF): JGerlach (WMF): EMagallanes (WMF): LMixter (WMF): MMoss (WMF): RamzyM (WMF): DNdubane (WMF): FOdeleye (WMF): APalmer (WMF): CRosloff (WMF): RStallman (WMF): FRomeo (WMF): SSpalding (WMF): KVaidla (WMF)} 92.21.196.173 (talk) 13:55, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On Firefangledfeathers' talk on 22 March 2024 WeatherWriter says:

To explain your exact ban reasoning, you should read...where the administrators explain their reasoning. Firefangledfeathers can also explain it in more detail as well.

Firefangledfeathers has linked to a page which has not been independently vetted and should not be visible. Why did he do that? The Foundation will be very interested to know. As the case is riddled with joe jobs, per a Stewards' enquiry (see User talk:Superpes15#Parabéns!), the Arbitration Committee has conducted a preliminary investigation and released the following findings:

VXFC has not edited
The account is resident in the United States
It is a sockpuppet of Flow234

Therefore, all allegations must be investigated separately and certified by diffs. The matter must be speedily resolved, as when the general election is called there will be a period of purdah which will inhibit discussion. One name which has been canvassed is One Night in Hackney (the unblock rationale reads blocking admin appears to have been "involved").

On the subject of quoting Camilla Tominey as if she were gospel, these wise words of Jimbo Wales and others on his talk page are pertinent:

We can and should exercise editorial judgment. We should take into account all the facts of reality at our disposal in a strong effort to present the truth always. Upon request I can go into a lot more detail about this point.--Jimbo Wales 14:31, 31 October 2011

...Editorial judgment can properly take into account the full context, all the known facts, not just published sources...--Jimbo Wales 14:49, 31 October 2011

...When sources disagree, off the top of my head, we have at least 3 ways to handle it:

Judge the quality of the sources and use the highest quality ones (as SandyGeorgia suggests in that talk).
Use our own editorial discretion and decide which source to use.
When sources disagree, document the disagreement... - A Quest For Knowledge 15:50, 31 October 2011

...Here we have a situation where there is a pretty strong consensus of the editors that the BBC got it wrong, but there is still hand wringing because the proof, which is pretty compelling, is published on someone's personal website rather than in a newspaper...--Jimbo Wales 17:59, 31 October 2011

I'm not saying it is, but the sources we choose are mostly left to our discretion as editors, as in we don't have a strict hierarchy of sources. Maybe I'm wrong in my interpretation of this, but WP:V doesn't compel us to choose reliable sources over primary sources, it just indicates it as good practice to do so i.e. reliable sources are strongly preferred rather than you must use reliable sources. If the claim is sourced using a primary source then that still actually complies with the policies on sourcing; IAR essentially allows editorial discretion where good practice can be counter-productive... - Betty Logan 14:32, 3 December 2011

...In the Nicki Minaj bio, we have a primary source that verifies which of the conflicting secondary sources is correct... - Stuart.Jamieson 21:45, 25 December 2011

...These are primary sources but primary sources can be useful in drawing out truth from secondary sources... - Stuart.Jamieson 10:52, 11 January 2012

A final final note (sorry), I seem to have misunderstood Wikipedia. If a primary source cannot be used as evidence of itself, but a secondary source, which is attacking and criticizing that primary source, in contradiction of the facts of the primary source, is used to define the primary source, what is the point of Wikipedia? Someone said that if 5 secondary sources say that Harry Potter is a girl, then Wikipedia would say that he is a girl, despite the primary source showing he is a boy. Is that the way this thing really works? - 86.93.139.223 12:49, 9 May 2012

One very depressing thing I see there is perhaps the worst case of the "verifiability, not truth" myth being repeated there that I have ever seen. "What you seem to misunderstand about WP is that the WP:TRUTH is not our goal, WP:VERIFIABILITY is. Indeed, if 5 secondary sources say that Harry Potter is a girl and we have no better or equal sources to correct that then we will report that Harry Potter is a girl." That's utter and complete nonsense.--Jimbo Wales 08:58, 25 May 2012

...But I wanted to put forward that you have badly misunderstood the purpose and nature of Wikipedia in at least one major respect.

You wrote: "What you seem to misunderstand about WP is that the WP:TRUTH is not our goal, WP:VERIFIABILITY is. Indeed, if 5 secondary sources say that Harry Potter is a girl and we have no better or equal sources to correct that then we will report that Harry Potter is a girl." That is absolutely and completely false. That doesn't describe the way we actually do our work, nor does it describe how we ought to do our work. This way of thinking is wrong, and based on a longstanding badly worded sentence in a policy document. It is false.

I don't care how many secondary sources say that Harry Potter is a girl. Any ordinary person is fully capable of going to the original novel and reading it to find out the truth. And that truth is more important than all the secondary sources in the world. An example like this is not an example which would involve our engaging in inappropriate original research - our ability to read this novel is equal to our ability to read the mistaken secondary sources, and we can correct the error put forward by the secondary sources.--Jimbo Wales 09:03, 25 May 2012

...In truth, there are few examples as extreme as the Harry Potter one, but if it were true that of a simple novel like that (with no complex gender mysteries) and reliable sources got a basic fact like that wrong, we would not follow the reliable sources, we would open up the novel and read the simple truth. We can and must and thank goodness do exercise thoughtful editorial judgment. We are not transcription monkeys.--Jimbo Wales 10:51, 25 May 2012

if 5 secondary sources say that Harry Potter is a girl and we have no better or equal sources to correct that then we will report that Harry Potter is a girl; we do have a better source. The book - in which it is brain numbingly obvious that Potter is a boy. I think the point being made is that if sources are clearly and unambiguously wrong we don't help matters by following them. No comment on its applicability to the dispute on that page. -- ErrantX 11:19, 25 May 2012

...I don't think you should trust secondary sources who say "this is what the diet claims to do" above the word of primary sources [Marriage Act 1949 s. 79 (5)] who are the ones making the claims. The primary sources are good sources for the content of their own claims. - Ken Arromdee 15:54, 12 July 2012

Regarding the use of Primary Sources, Jimbo made it clear in an earlier discussion on this topic that Wikipedia does not ignore obvious Primary Sources in favor of conflicting secondary sources [Duke and Duchess of Sussex v Archbishop of Canterbury]. Maximus. - 93.75.227.40 06:47, 13 July 2012

Police sources speaking to DNA Info said that editing Wikipedia was the officers' "First Amendment right," and that it was not inappropriate for them to add information that they believed was accurate. - http://www.theverge.com/2015/3/17/8230569/nypd-wikipedia-edits-eric-garner-no-punishment; Since Wikipedia is a publicly accessed and edited web encyclopedia it's not inappropriate for NYPD officers or anyone else to visit pages and edit references they believe are technically inaccurate, sources said.

"That is their First Amendment right," a law enforcement source said - http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20150316/civic-center/2-nypd-officers-who-edited-wikipedia-posts-face-no-punishment-sources-say;

...We are not transcription monkeys, merely writing down what the sources say - we are editors. We use our editorial judgment all the time, and when we get to an interesting edge case, we discuss the details... - Jimbo Wales 12:48, 25 September 2012

...People speak of Jimbo's edit as if he added some unsourced content, though he did not. He removed a contentious inclusion; rightfully. Adding contentious content does require verifiability in reliable sources; removing content requires a thoughtful edit summary. - John Cline 03:05, 28 September 2012

The bottom line is that we need to put a bullet in the head of the notion that "The important thing is verifiability, not truth." The notion of so-called "Reliable Sources" is a holdover from this justly discredited epoch. There are more accurate and less accurate sources, but ultimately there is an objective reality out there that we need to describe dispassionately and fairly for our readers. - Carrite 02:12, 6 February 2015

- enough of this per "Of course the subject of a BLP does not get to cherrypick preferable sources, but if the information is reliable then there should be other sources available. If not, there's no harm to Wikipedia by not including it."... - In ictu oculi 19:53, 17 March 2015

...Those who write content have to be smart enough to use the whole range of available information and the ability to do so dispassionately and fairly. End of spiel. - Carrite 17:01, 26 March 2015

...Vetting refs is really complicated, a lot more complicated than people think; your reliable source is less reliable than you think, and there's much else to say about that... - Herostratus 04:57, 4 February 2022

The situation has not arisen before, so how does Wikipedia report it? There's guidance in the review of the podcast Meetings with the other Harry in the Observer New Review of 28 April 2024. It contains the sentence

The Bachelor of Buckingham Palace takes an in-depth look at how I Wanna Marry "Harry" affected not-Prince Harry (Hicks) and his hapless ladies.

So "not-Queen Camilla" appears to be the correct terminology. 92.10.145.124 (talk) 18:45, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

May 14

Grade level splitting/staggering in American schools

I am interested in genealogy, and in the course of research I found that many American high school yearbooks over 50 years ago contained both a January graduating class and a June graduating class. Grade levels were split or staggered into "A" and "B" grades, e.g., you weren't in 10th grade, you were either in "10A" or "10B". Presumably one half moved up in January and the other half moved up in June. An example yearbook is here: [10]. Are there any available resources that discuss this historical practice? Helpful Raccoon (talk) 00:34, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My high school in Canada did this too! Félix An (talk) 09:18, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It would likely be up to the rules in a given state (or province) or possibly even the local school board. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:55, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In California, the practice was in reaction to the baby boomers filling the schools faster than the voters approved new spending on facilities and faculty. By the 1970s, there were even split sessions within a single day: morning (7:30am-lunch) and afternoon (lunch-5pm). DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 18:58, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing -- this practice started well before the baby boomers and was being phased out by the 1960s. Helpful Raccoon (talk) 19:32, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2004–2009 UAE population boom

According to the World Bank, the total population of the UAE double from 2004 (4m) to 2009 (8m). Was this really the case? Or is it just that the large population of foreign workers was undercounted before and that was fixed during that period? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 06:04, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Their crude birth rate has dropped from around 16‰ in 2000 to around 10‰.[11] That seems to tell most of the story. Remsense诉 08:14, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Meanwhile, the inwards migration rate to the UAE reached a peak of 109% in 2007/8 [12] Alansplodge (talk) 14:40, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is xe.com a reliable source for checking exchange rates?

Just for making deals/transactions among close friends with foreign currencies (not to send money), is xe.com a WP:RS to check the rates? Félix An (talk) 09:16, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, as long as a 1-2% variation isn't a deal-breaker DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 19:00, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can the name of Virginia be changed to East Virginia?

East Virginia ~ West Virginia, just like North Carolina ~ South Carolina and North Dakota ~ South Dakota, they are “opposite direction” names, and if so, then we can have a state name starting with the letter E. 2402:7500:92D:FD81:EC83:9EB4:F66F:5867 (talk) 09:42, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In theory. But why would they want to? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:53, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

North Dakota and South Dakota were decreed into existence by Congress in the 19th century, while the Province of Carolina was split into North Carolina and South Carolina in 1712. In neither case was one considered to be part of the other. However, Virginia existed as a British colony, then a U.S. state, for over 200 years, from the early 17th century until the U.S. Civil War, when it became exceedingly awkward that the northwest part of the state was solidly pro-Union, while the rest was Confederate. The remaining part of the state when West Virginia split off contained the state capital, most of the population, the majority of the land, all of the seacoast, and the political elites who traditionally ran the state, so it was the clear and obvious successor state to the previous undivided commonwealth (state) of Virginia. The Virginia elites did not have positive feelings about West Virginia splitting off, and felt that their part was the "real" historic Virginia, and so were not motivated to rename to "East Virginia". AnonMoos (talk) 10:42, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The question was can the name be changed. Yes, why not? The US has one state that changed its name, with no problems. --142.112.220.50 (talk) 15:28, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Rhode Island changed its official name to what everyone calls it anyway. Is there anyone in Virginia who calls their state "East Virginia"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Every so often a governor of North Dakota will argue for changing it to just "Dakota". Then someone will counter-argue that that cold, desolate state should instead be just "North". And that usually puts an end to it, again. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:34, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's like Palo Alto and East Palo Alto. There ain't no West Palo Alto – even though we have a redirect. Actually, most of East Palo Alto is more to the West than most of Palo Alto.

May 15

payment aggregators and payment gateways

Is it accurate to categorize payment aggregators and payment gateways as payment infrastructure providers or payment system providers? What distinction would be more precise in describing their role in the payment ecosystem? Grotesquetruth (talk) 11:00, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Walmart

Matt Stoller tweets:

The spread of Walmart in the 1980s shattered Southern politics, that’s *purely* a trade and antitrust story. The civil rights movement is not why the South went to the right.[13]

What does he mean by that? Walmart shifted Southern politics rightward but not the rest of the country? They are everywhere I thought. Was it just about consolidating retail or was there more, like offshoring manufacturing? Does Amazon have a similar effect now? Thanks. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:DBFA:4401:E57A:AAC4 (talk) 11:44, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reading the entire Twitter chain, he is merely using Walmart as an example of a larger trend. His argument is that the South turned to the GOP because of economic issues, not Civil Rights issues. Whether he is correct (or not) is not something we should debate on this page. Blueboar (talk) 12:37, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aha. I didn't see the rest of the thread. No I didn't want a debate, I just wanted to understand what he is saying. I guess it's not entirely about Walmart. Thanks. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:DBFA:4401:E57A:AAC4 (talk) 12:45, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The author making that argument probably also denies that the Civil War was about slavery. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:50, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For the conventional narrative which he's disputing, see Southern strategy... -- AnonMoos (talk) 16:32, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

House of Stairs II by M. C. Escher

Does that [above] exist? Curl-up article claims it does (uncited}, but I am unable to find evidence. The following is the most comprehensive listing that I found: [14] -- 136.54.106.120 (talk) 18:57, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~:Is this the expanded version? Mikenorton (talk) 19:42, 15 May 2024 (UTC)~~[reply]

@@ Line 564: / Line 564: @@
 ::Where was it initially planned to go?? It goes from Saint Louis through Louisville, Lexington, Huntington, Charleston, Beckley, Charlottesville, Richmond, and Norfolk. What cities was it initially planned to go through?? [[User:Georgia guy|Georgia guy]] ([[User talk:Georgia guy|talk]]) 19:53, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 :::The [https://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2006/summer/interstates.html Feds say] that even going through some of the same ''states'' as US-50 would have been confusing. Remember, they reversed the numbering system to avoid the US Route numbering system. And I-50 may have never reached the planning stage. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> [[User:Abductive|<span style="color: teal;">'''Abductive'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Abductive|reasoning]])</span> 20:26, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
+= May 12 =
+== Unusual train for a bride ==
+An item in ''This Week'' (16 March 2024) under the headline ''Getting married on a train'' reveals:
+{{small|On 8 March, a couple who met on a train held their wedding on one.   Leah and Vince exchanged rings as the train made its way from Paddington station in London towards Reading, England.}}
+How did this happen?   The Great Western Railway advertises adventures, but getting married hasn't been on their bucket list up to now.   Under the marriage law, ceremonies can only take place in a "registered building", and, once registered, buildings must be available to everyone for a minimum of I think two years.   This last provision scuppered Charles and Camilla Parker Bowles' plan to hold their 2005 "wedding" in Windsor Castle.   They had to decamp to Windsor Guildhall across the road.   Naturally enough, the Queen and Prince Philip boycotted the highly illegal ceremony. [[Special:Contributions/92.25.130.132|92.25.130.132]] ([[User talk:92.25.130.132|talk]]) 10:18, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
+:On 4 April the ''Daily Mail'' reported:
+{{small|They lived on limited rations, rainwater and melted snow, not knowing if they would survive or indeed if their country still existed.   This powerful documentary hears from soldiers and civilians who were there, including a couple who married using tinfoil as rings.}}
+All this leads me to the conclusion that these ceremonies are symbolic rather than legal.   As you move up the social scale, although still illegal they become "official."   Obvious examples are [[Talk:Paula Vennells#RfC on CBE in lead|Charles]], [[Talk:Paula Vennells#Bad faith editing by Martinevans123, KJP1 and Ghmyrtle|Camilla]], Harry and Meghan.   But nobody suggests that Harry and Meghan are not man and wife, the reason of course being their ''legal'' marriage three days before their ''official'' one.   (Those words "legal" and "official" feature in the Sussexes' last pronouncement on the subject).   On Tuesday Parliament passed a law proclaiming that Rwanda is a "safe country" for all time, a direction to our judges that can only be overturned by primary legislation.   You can't get more official than that.
+So how was it that newspapers were screaming "Harry and Meghan admit they lied about the date of their marriage"?   How is it that Wikipedia is using these tales as "reliable sources"?   The answer appears to be the gullibility of Wikipedia editors (and Martinevans123 has just come off a lengthy indefinite block).   Said editors are aware that the Law Commission's recent report on marriage law explains that the presence or absence of witnesses has no effect whatsoever on the validity of a marriage, but trumpet the reverse as "truth" nevertheless.   On the subject of "truth", the ''Guardian'' of 3 April quotes from a House of Commons briefing on the propagation of fake news by newspapers, holding up the reporting of the Hillsborough disaster as an example:
+{{small|The Sun newspaper published a series of misleading and fabricated stories, placing much of the blame on Liverpool fans.}}
+One headline ran:
+'''THE TRUTH'''
+* <u>'''Some fans picked pockets of victims'''</u>
+* <u>'''Some fans urinated on the brave cops'''</u>
+Page 19 of the ''Sun'' of 15 April 2024 claims "Charles, 71, is visiting Scotland for the first time since revealing his cancer diagnosis in February."   The Coronation was on 2 June 1953, when he would, according to them, be no more than a year old.   Are there any pictures of him there?   Maybe not, because I remember watching it on television.   On page 23 the same issue tells us:
+{{small|They headed to Guarda, Portugal, for a more "affordable" life with daughters Emily, 12, and Yvie, ten...}}
+{{small|But Lynn, 51, says dog Cu died, then cats Ponyo [!] and Bubbles were poisoned in January, amid a "storm of resentment" from villagers, who feared more outsiders could arrive.}}
+Guarda is a city and administrative headquarters on the main railway line linking northern Portugal, Spain and France.   Recently a refdesk enquirer was told a question about cities could not be answered unless the questioner proffered a definition of the word.   This particular city was founded as a "guard" against incursions by the Moors, and its inhabitants will be in good mood today having yesterday celebrated the joyful return of democracy exactly half a century before on Thursday, 25 April 1974.   Writing in the ''Daily Mail'' on 4 April 2024, Craig Brown says:
+{{small|'''1.''' This year sees the 50th anniversary of the first appearance of many things, including the Rubik's cube, the VW Golf, Post-it notes, Bailey's Irish Cream, the Heimlich manoeuvre, and the Bay City Rollers.   But the most ubiquitous of all these inventions is surely the bar code.}}
+I was out of the country that year, so I missed all that, but I didn't miss everything - in August the headline on the newsstands was ''Nixon dimitiu-se''.
+If instead of passing the Rwanda bill on Tuesday the House of Lords had a second time replaced fiction with fact that would have been "double insistence."   The word cropped up earlier when a litigant challenging in the High Court Camilla's use of the title "Queen" was ordered to sign a fake "insistence form" declaring that the case had no prospect of success, in default whereof the papers would be hurled into the wastebin. [[Special:Contributions/80.43.67.153|80.43.67.153]] ([[User talk:80.43.67.153|talk]]) 13:32, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
+:At the weekend, Rishi Sunak was crowing that asylum seekers were crossing the border from Northern Ireland to the Republic, which he claimed was proof that his Rwanda law was "working".   He now has to arrange meetings of his ministers with their Irish counterparts (at the request of the latter), who are ''not very pleased!''   I enjoyed reading the following anecdote in ''The Times'' of 3 April:
+{{small|One may be apocryphal, as he doesn't name the local newspaper reporting that WH Auden, had been welcomed by "a small but enthusiastic crow", but the other was in our Sunday sibling paper, which in 1987 quoted the tycoon Armand Hammer as saying that Prince Charles was "a young man wise beyond his ears".}}
+:An item in this week's ''Mail on Sunday'' provides a pointer to why governments of both hues have been desperately covering up the Camillagate scandal for two decades.
+{{small|Nigel Farage was offered a knighthood and ten peerages to hand out to his Brexit Party colleagues as part of an attempt to lure him into an election pact with the Tories, The Mail on Sunday has been told...}}
+{{small|Mr Farage said: 'Our experience in 2019 showed us the Conservative Party cannot be trusted.   They are totally devoid of principle and corrupt to the core...'}}
+Honours are handed out by the monarch, so if the government of the day doesn't keep him onside it loses a negotiating ploy.   I voted Conservative this morning.   The government is bad, but the alternative is worse. [[Special:Contributions/89.243.11.41|89.243.11.41]] ([[User talk:89.243.11.41|talk]]) 12:08, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
+:Re the comment above 89.243's, the ''Mail on Sunday'' suggests Camilla is in on the joke.   It reports:
+{{small|...she broke out in peals of laughter while examining a selection of pies.}}
+{{small|'That looks just like my husband,' she joked, beckoning aides towards an anthropomorphic bake with oversized ears and a crown.}}
+Keeping up the jollity, the paper's royal correspondent continues:
+{{small|Typically, Camilla kept close as he greeted crowds and laughed when a fan shouted out 'Camilla is 17 now'}}
+Ponder that for as long as you wish before reading the conclusion of the sentence below:
+{{small|- causing momentary confusion, before she pointed to her pet Cavalier.}}
+To round off the piece, the reporter declares:
+{{small|...those who once held Camilla in high disdain, who considered her a threat to the monarchy's stability, should reflect that the nation owes her a debt.}}
+If she wants her readers to think that, she's going about it the wrong way.   Earlier, she comments "While they have different tastes, the couple are also both voracious readers."
+Some years ago, Meghan, Duchess of Sussex, commented on social media that son "Archie has a voracious appetite for books."   The ''Daily Telegraph'''s Camilla Tominey, (who used to accompany her namesake on royal tours), misreported Meghan as saying "Archie reads books voraciously", then accused her of lying because, of course, a child that age cannot read.   The hashtag {{xt|#Camilla Tominey has a voracious appetite for lying}} went viral shortly afterwards.
+The scandal has not hit the newspapers, and it's fairly obvious why not.   In the same Sunday newspaper, Peter Hitchens notes:
+{{small|My brilliant Daily Mail colleague Alex Brummer disclosed last week how Labour's great thumping fist, Gordon Brown, suppressed Alex's scoop on Labour's secret 1997 plan to raid and wreck this country's once-superb private pension sector.}}
+{{small|At that time, Alex recalled, he was working for the pro-Labour Guardian newspaper.   When Brown learned that the paper intended to publish, he 'put intense pressure on the publication to hold fire or face dire consequences when New Labour came to power.}}
+{{small|To its everlasting shame, the Guardian pulled the story.}}
+This story [http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/the-tory-big-beasts-tipped-to-lose-their-seats/ar-AA1o8MgE] by (I kid you not) Camilla Turner in the ''Sunday Telegraph'' suggests that Justice Secretary Alex Chalk will lose his seat at the election.   One less of the "gang of four" to worry about, then. [[Special:Contributions/2.102.9.172|2.102.9.172]] ([[User talk:2.102.9.172|talk]]) 12:35, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
+:The other three, Camilla, Charles and [[Antonia Romeo]], are pictured together in Friday's ''Daily Mail''.   There was no sign of Chalk in the Commons this afternoon to answer an urgent question from the shadow Justice Secretary, who said his "plan is to say nothing, hide everything, and try to get to the other side of the general election."   Don't let Wikipedia editors be complicit in that.
+:In the Principal's Newsletter (October 2013, Issue 2) T Clark, the Principal of Skinners' Academy (which used to be in Stamford Hill but has moved down the road to Woodberry Down), wrote this:
+{{small|Unfortunately, over the past few weeks we have had a few incidences of pupils or parents writing unpleasant messages on internet sites about other members of the Academy.   I appreciate that such sites are very popular, but writing insulting or libellous comments about others, especially when they have no means of replying [think [[IRC]]], is unacceptable.   The Academy policy is very clear on this:  any pupil who writes something insulting on the internet about another pupil, a member of staff [think Fram] or the Academy, will be automatically suspended/excluded from the Academy (the law makes it absolutely clear that the Academy rules in such instances apply even when the pupil is off site); should a parent write anything insulting or libellous, the matter will always be reported to the police and to our solicitors, who have the right to prosecute.}}
+In the past eleven years the law has been tightened considerably, and Trust and Safety has been reorganised accordingly.   There is ample material for a reference.   Today is the penultimate day of voting in the [[m:Universal Code of Conduct/Coordinating Committee/Election/2024]]. {ping|PBradley (WMF): Jbuatti (WMF): BChoo (WMF): Mdennis (WMF): JEissfeldt (WMF): JGerlach (WMF): EMagallanes (WMF): LMixter (WMF): MMoss (WMF): RamzyM (WMF): DNdubane (WMF): FOdeleye (WMF): APalmer (WMF): CRosloff (WMF): RStallman (WMF): FRomeo (WMF): SSpalding (WMF): KVaidla (WMF)} [[Special:Contributions/92.21.196.173|92.21.196.173]] ([[User talk:92.21.196.173|talk]]) 13:55, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
+:On Firefangledfeathers' talk on 22 March 2024 WeatherWriter says:
+{{small|To explain your exact ban reasoning, you should read...where the administrators explain their reasoning.   Firefangledfeathers can also explain it in more detail as well.}}
+Firefangledfeathers has linked to a page which has not been independently vetted and should not be visible.   Why did he do that?   The Foundation will be very interested to know.   As the case is riddled with joe jobs, per a [[1996 Grand National#Stewards' enquiry|Stewards' enquiry]] (see [[User talk:Superpes15#Parabéns!]]), the Arbitration Committee has conducted a preliminary investigation and released the following findings:
+* VXFC has not edited
+* The account is resident in the United States
+* It is a sockpuppet of Flow234
+Therefore, all allegations must be investigated separately and certified by diffs.   The matter must be speedily resolved, as when the general election is called there will be a period of purdah which will inhibit discussion.   One name which has been canvassed is One Night in Hackney (the unblock rationale reads ''blocking admin appears to have been "involved"'').
+:On the subject of quoting Camilla Tominey as if she were gospel, these wise words of Jimbo Wales and others on his talk page are pertinent:
+<small>
+We can and should exercise editorial judgment.  We should take into account all the facts of reality at our disposal in a strong effort to present the truth always.  Upon request I can go into a lot more detail about this point.--Jimbo Wales 14:31, 31 October 2011
+...Editorial judgment can properly take into account the full context, all the known facts, not just published sources...--Jimbo Wales 14:49, 31 October 2011
+...When sources disagree, off the top of my head, we have at least 3 ways to handle it:
+:#Judge the quality of the sources and use the highest quality ones (as SandyGeorgia suggests in that talk).
+:#Use our own editorial discretion and decide which source to use.
+:#When sources disagree, document the disagreement... - A Quest For Knowledge 15:50, 31 October 2011
+...Here we have a situation where there is a pretty strong consensus of the editors that the BBC got it wrong, but there is still hand wringing because the proof, which is pretty compelling, is published on someone's personal website rather than in a newspaper...--Jimbo Wales 17:59, 31 October 2011
+I'm not saying it is, but the sources we choose are mostly left to our discretion as editors, as in we don't have a strict hierarchy of sources.  Maybe I'm wrong in my interpretation of this, but [[WP:V]] doesn't compel us to choose reliable sources over primary sources, it just indicates it as good practice to do so i.e. reliable sources are strongly preferred rather than ''you must'' use reliable sources. If the claim is sourced using a primary source then that still actually complies with the policies on sourcing; IAR essentially allows editorial discretion where good practice can be counter-productive... - Betty Logan 14:32, 3 December 2011
+...In the Nicki Minaj bio, we have a primary source that verifies which of the conflicting secondary sources is correct... - Stuart.Jamieson 21:45, 25 December 2011
+...These are primary sources but primary sources can be useful in drawing out truth from secondary sources... - Stuart.Jamieson 10:52, 11 January 2012
+A final final note (sorry), I seem to have misunderstood Wikipedia. If a primary source cannot be used as evidence of itself, but a secondary source, which is attacking and criticizing that primary source, in contradiction of the facts of the primary source, is used to define the primary source, what is the point of Wikipedia? Someone said that if 5 secondary sources say that Harry Potter is a girl, then Wikipedia would say that he is a girl, despite the primary source showing he is a boy. Is that the way this thing really works? - 86.93.139.223 12:49, 9 May 2012
+One very depressing thing I see there is perhaps the worst case of the "verifiability, not truth" myth being repeated there that I have ever seen. "What you seem to misunderstand about WP is that the WP:TRUTH is not our goal, WP:VERIFIABILITY is. Indeed, if 5 secondary sources say that Harry Potter is a girl and we have no better or equal sources to correct that then we will report that Harry Potter is a girl." That's utter and complete nonsense.--Jimbo Wales 08:58, 25 May 2012
+...But I wanted to put forward that you have badly misunderstood the purpose and nature of Wikipedia in at least one major respect.
+You wrote: "What you seem to misunderstand about WP is that the WP:TRUTH is not our goal, WP:VERIFIABILITY is. Indeed, if 5 secondary sources say that Harry Potter is a girl and we have no better or equal sources to correct that then we will report that Harry Potter is a girl."  That is absolutely and completely false.  That doesn't describe the way we actually do our work, nor does it describe how we ought to do our work.  This way of thinking is wrong, and based on a longstanding badly worded sentence in a policy document.  It is false.
+I don't care how many secondary sources say that Harry Potter is a girl.  Any ordinary person is fully capable of going to the original novel and reading it to find out the truth.  And that truth is more important than all the secondary sources in the world.  An example like this is '''not''' an example which would involve our engaging in inappropriate original research - our ability to read this novel is equal to our ability to read the mistaken secondary sources, and we can correct the error put forward by the secondary sources.--Jimbo Wales 09:03, 25 May 2012
+...In truth, there are few examples as extreme as the Harry Potter one, but if it were true that of a simple novel like that (with no complex gender mysteries) and reliable sources got a basic fact like that wrong, we would not follow the reliable sources, we would open up the novel and read the simple truth.  We can and must and thank goodness do exercise thoughtful editorial judgment.  We are not transcription monkeys.--Jimbo Wales 10:51, 25 May 2012
+''if 5 secondary sources say that Harry Potter is a girl and we have no better or equal sources to correct that then we will report that Harry Potter is a girl''; we do have a better source. The book - in which it is brain numbingly obvious that Potter is a boy. I think the point being made is that if sources are clearly and unambiguously wrong we don't help matters by following them. No comment on its applicability to the dispute on that page. -- ErrantX 11:19, 25 May 2012
+...I don't think you should trust secondary sources who say "this is what the diet claims to do" above the word of primary sources [{{xt|Marriage Act 1949 s. 79 (5)}}] who are the ones making the claims.  The primary sources are good sources for the content of their own claims. - Ken Arromdee 15:54, 12 July 2012
+Regarding the use of Primary Sources, Jimbo made it clear in an earlier discussion on this topic that Wikipedia does not ignore obvious Primary Sources in favor of conflicting secondary sources [{{xt|Duke and Duchess of Sussex v Archbishop of Canterbury}}]. Maximus. - 93.75.227.40 06:47, 13 July 2012
+Police sources speaking to ''DNA Info'' said that editing Wikipedia was the officers' "First Amendment right," and that it was not inappropriate for them to add information that they believed was accurate. - http://www.theverge.com/2015/3/17/8230569/nypd-wikipedia-edits-eric-garner-no-punishment; Since Wikipedia is a publicly accessed and edited web encyclopedia it's not inappropriate for NYPD officers or anyone else to visit pages and edit references they believe are technically inaccurate, sources said.
+"That is their First Amendment right," a law enforcement source said - http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20150316/civic-center/2-nypd-officers-who-edited-wikipedia-posts-face-no-punishment-sources-say;
+...We are not transcription monkeys, merely writing down what the sources say - we are editors. We use our editorial judgment all the time, and when we get to an interesting edge case, we discuss the details... - Jimbo Wales 12:48, 25 September 2012
+...People speak of Jimbo's edit as if he added some unsourced content, though he did not. He removed a contentious inclusion; rightfully. Adding contentious content does require verifiability in reliable sources; removing content requires a thoughtful edit summary. - John Cline 03:05, 28 September 2012
+* The bottom line is that we need to put a bullet in the head of the notion that "The important thing is verifiability, not truth." The notion of so-called "Reliable Sources" is a holdover from this justly discredited epoch. There are ''more accurate'' and ''less accurate'' sources, but ultimately there is an objective reality out there that we need to describe dispassionately and fairly for our readers. - Carrite 02:12, 6 February 2015
+- enough of this per "Of course the subject of a BLP does not get to cherrypick preferable sources, but if the information is reliable then there should be other sources available. If not, there's no harm to Wikipedia by not including it."... - In ictu oculi 19:53, 17 March 2015
+...Those who write content have to be smart enough to use the whole range of available information and the ability to do so dispassionately and fairly. End of spiel. - Carrite 17:01, 26 March 2015
+...Vetting refs is really complicated, a lot more complicated than people think; your reliable source is less reliable than you think, and there's much else to say about that... - Herostratus 04:57, 4 February 2022
+</small>
+:The situation has not arisen before, so how does Wikipedia report it?   There's guidance in the review of the podcast ''Meetings with the other Harry'' in the ''Observer New Review'' of 28 April 2024.   It contains the sentence
+{{blockquote|''The Bachelor of Buckingham Palace'' takes an in-depth look at how ''I Wanna Marry "Harry"'' affected not-Prince Harry (Hicks) and his hapless ladies.}}
+So "not-Queen Camilla" appears to be the correct terminology. [[Special:Contributions/92.10.145.124|92.10.145.124]] ([[User talk:92.10.145.124|talk]]) 18:45, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 = May 14 =