Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/Society/Archive 8

Archive 5

Archive 6

Archive 7

Archive 8

Archive 9

Remove Disney Experiences

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Receives only a fraction of pageviews, and has only a fraction of the interwikis, of Disneyland and Disney World, which are also listed at VA5 pbp 19:18, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 19:18, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 20:22, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 02:12, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:48, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
5. feminist🩸 (talk) 06:27, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 19:03, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove International Table Hockey Federation

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A federation for a niche sport, table hockey, which we don't list. This could be a swap, but I feel it would be better to just remove, because table hockey isn't as widely known as table football.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 20:43, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 23:12, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 02:12, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
4. feminist🩸 (talk) 06:26, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:40, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Support a swap with table football. Gizza (talk) 08:11, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

   Table football  5 is already V5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 12:04, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

7. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 05:25, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. Would you consider nominating Table football  5? Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:40, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

   Nevermind, that is already V5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 12:04, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

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Remove The Walking Dead (video game)

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While the game was a commercial success and definitely somewhat influential, I can't see how it would qualify to be among the most important subjects for an encyclopedia. The show? Absolutely. The game or the comics? Not so much. Nothing in the article demonstrates a long-lasting legacy, and the Video games WikiProject lists it as only a Mid-importance article. Not even its own developer is around these days.

Support

1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1 23:23, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. No way this should be listed over The Last of Us  5. starship.paint (RUN) 01:09, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nominator. The Blue Rider 15:35, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:11, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Seems forgotten now. I read game news and reviews which mentions some enduring title - don't recall this one. As Starship notes, The Last of Us might be a swap to consider. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 23:08, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Support swap with TLOU, oppose simple removal, I feel like we should have at least one of these story-driven/interactive movie type games. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:49, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Swap with TLOU. The Walking Dead is first and foremost known for the TV series. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 04:02, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
8. Support swap with TLOU, oppose simple removal like Kevinishere15. The game has some legacy its article fails to mention, making a simple removal a bit hasty in my opinion; but TLOU is more famous and would be a fairly solid replacement.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 07:00, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
9. Support and swap for TLOU. GreenishPickle! (🔔) 00:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

"Telltale-style games" became a trend for quite a while. Quickly Googling "the walking dead telltale influence" provides several articles like this - although mostly ones at the time of Telltale's closure, so maybe to be taken with a grain of salt.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 08:04, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

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Add Armenian Revolutionary Federation

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The ARF has had over a century of history, in which it has been rather influential. Founded in 1890 to campaign for Armenian independence, it was a prominent participant in the Russian Revolution of 1905  4, the Persian Constitutional Revolution  4 and the Young Turk Revolution  5. During the earliest days of the Armenian genocide  4, its members were targetted and murdered. It led the resistance to the genocide, culminating with its establishment of the First Armenian Republic and later an assassination campaign, in which it killed the main perpertrators of the genocide, including Talaat Pasha  4. After the Republic was dissolved by the Soviets, the ARF became massively influential in the Armenian diaspora, gaining a particularly large influence in Lebanon, where it fought in the civil war and is still a major party up until today. After the independence of Armenia, it became one of the main political parties in the country and was particularly influential in the Republic of Artsakh  5 and in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict  5. The article for the ARF has 40 interwikis and averages 352 daily pageviews. I think the ARF is certainly a vital subject worth listing in our section on political parties. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:53, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:11, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:15, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
3. I don't know anything about ARF, but per nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:40, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:07, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Sympathy  5

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A somewhat weaker concept than Empathy  4 but should be appropriate for V5.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 08:36, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 08:40, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 11:04, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
4. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:23, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Basic. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:16, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:38, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Blue Cross Blue Shield Association

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They provide health insurance to about 1/3 (115 million people) of the United States.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:17, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom.TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:17, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:23, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
3. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 08:40, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Strong oppose. Such a niche thing providing a type of insurance to less than half of a single country's population. The Blue Rider 13:59, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per blue rider. Way too America-centric. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:27, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per TBR. starship.paint (RUN) 09:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Does anyone know what insurance companies are listed? J947 ‡ ^edits 09:23, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Vehicle simulation game

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Simulation video game  5 is only VA5, and this has some amount of overlap with Racing game  5. It also has a low amount of interwikis among the genres on the list. There are other genres that should be listed instead, such as Fighting game  5.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:58, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 15:00, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
3. feminist🩸 (talk) 01:47, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:09, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Call of Duty Championship

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Esports  5 are becoming more popular, but I think they are too recent a phenomenon. This one suggests systemic bias.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:22, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Esports  5 is enough, and Call of Duty Championship is too new (established in 2013 according to the infobox). ~150 daily pageviews, 2 interwikis.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 07:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 07:02, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 11:55, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
5. feminist🩸 (talk) 12:31, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:13, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Not even sure if this is the first esports tournament I would list. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:41, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
8. per nom. λ NegativeMP1 04:44, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Nathan's Hot Dog Eating Contest

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Not every sport should include an individual competition. Competitive eating  5 is already niche.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:29, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:15, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 11:55, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
4. feminist🩸 (talk) 12:43, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add The Chronic (potential swap with Nuthin' but a 'G' Thang  5)

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I feel like any vitality that “Nuthin’ but a ‘G’ Thang” has can easily be applied to its parent album. I have seen people praise The Chronic for drastically changing the hip-hop landscape like what Nevermind did for rock, and even music in general. Now, I’m largely just interested in adding The Chronic (both Nevermind  5 and Smells Like Teen Spirit  5 are on here), but I have no issue having to swap “Nuthin’ but a ‘G’ Thang” for it. SailorGardevoir (talk) 09:29, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. 09:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC)SailorGardevoir (talk)
2. Support swap --Makkool (talk) 19:40, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Support swap Iostn (talk) 23:24, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
4. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:43, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Swap Kinky Boots (musical)  5 and Somewhere (song) with The Sound of Music and Ol' Man River

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Of all the musical works listed under musicals, these two are probably the least vital. Although Kinky Boots won a bunch of Tonys, so do a lot of other musicals not here. (Personally, I think that Matilda musical that came out around the same time is more vital.) This is especially glaring since we don’t have The Sound of Music on here, which is much more vital. Yes, we have two other Rodger and Hammerstein musicals on here, and the film version is a level 4, but I think we can afford Hammerstein’s last musical on here.

Meanwhile, I don’t think “Somewhere” is more vital than “America” or “Maria”. However, instead of choosing another song from West Side Story, I’m going instead pick “Ol’ Man River”. I think this song that is heavily associated with Paul Robeson is vital enough on its own, even if we already have Show Boat on here.

Support

1. As nom. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:37, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Partial Support. The Sound of Music (film)  4 is already in the list, so I'd only support removing Kinky Boots and Somewhere, and adding Ol' Man River. --Makkool (talk) 19:40, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Sound of music indeed is more vital --EleniXDD※Talk 06:46, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
4. I support the song swap. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:34, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I am not sure what version of SOM is more vital (film or musical). I do think Kinky Boots might be the least vital of the listed Musicals. Maybe The Producers (musical)  5 is as far down the pecking order. I am just not sure this is the best swap because I conflate the film and the musical in terms of vitality. Until I have a clearer substitute, I will oppose KB, but could support the right swap.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:34, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

   @User:TonyTheTiger: The film is already on here as a Level 4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

   Let me then state that although I consider KB one of the less vital (along with The Producers, IMO) musicals on the list, I do consider it to be the only one of the few musical that strongly presents/supports LGBTQ+-themes. So I am not in a rush to remove it. It might not only be the only one of the few of the 29 musicals, but also the only one of the few of the 401 specific musical works that is strongly LGBTQ-themed.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:32, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

   How many works among the 401 specific musical works are tagged with WP:LGBT?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:09, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

   @SailorGardevoir, Makkool, and EleniXDD: just pinging the other discussants on this one to see if anyone wants to add perspective addressing the above LGBT comments. I am quite unsure whether this is in fact the most important (only vital work tagged) musical work to LGBT.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:41, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

   I don't know. I'm objecting to Kinky Boots mostly because that it's so recent. I think Cabaret (musical)  5 is enough for LGBT representation. Makkool (talk) 15:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

   Actually, I realize that LGBT has tagged Rent (musical)  5, but not Cabaret (musical)  5-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:25, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

   What Makool said. Also, it would be one thing if this musical is praised for furthering queer representation, but I don't think that's the case. SailorGardevoir (talk) 15:31, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

   User:Makkool, I am not necessarily the most politically correct discussant, so I mean this as an ally. There are not many subject areas on WP that LGBT representation would really be an important consideration. Of all the subject areas on WP, if any would be expected to accord the LGBT community proportional representation, musical theatre would be among the select few to do so. Thus, if the LGBT community is roughly 10% of the population and musicals have 29 vital articles we should have at least 2 or 3 tagged by LGBT to be according LGBT its representation. Thus Kinky Boots and Rent and sort of Caberet would actually be proper for us to accord LGBT proper representation in the musical theatre subject area.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:30, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

   Just reviewed Cabaret (musical)  5 plot and don't see LGBT theme. Although the background would lead you to expect some LGBT plot angle, I don't see one. So I don't see how Cabaret gets us toward "LGBT representation". I also don't think representation minimum should vary much from 10% because I don't know any other number that sounds right. And if we don't give LGBT representation in musical theater, where else do we do it.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:10, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

   I'm sorry Tony, but you are putting way too much thought into this musical that I don't think even the person who added this gave. Any discussion I have seen about Kinky Boots chiefly amounts to "did this deserve to beat Matilda the Musical at the Tonies?" And what do you mean you don't see LGBT themes in Cabaret? The Emcee character is queer as all hell! SailorGardevoir (talk) 17:18, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

   The WP synopsis does not present any queer element is what I mean. I.e., we do not present queer in the article and LGBT does not tag the article in its current state.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:03, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

   It's in Category:LGBT-related_musicals though, which I used as reference. Makkool (talk) 19:30, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

   I am sure Cabaret is a bit queer. However, when I read the WP:LEAD of Kinky Boots, I know the main character is a drag queen. Nothing in the LEAD or synopsis points to queer themes in Cabaret. I don't think I have seen Cabaret. The presence of a gay character does not really make something LGBT. The synopsis seems to focus on hetero love elements. Heck NYPD Blue had that character that Andy Sipowicz at times referred to a gay John (John Irvin). His presence did not make NYPD Blue an LGBT show. I don't know what gay themes arise due to this gay emcee. Maybe we should ask LGBT if they want to tag Cabaret. Even so, I just think there are few more queer friendly topics than musical theatre and if we are going to give LGBT proportional (10%) representation in any topic on WP, musical theater might be the single most important topic to represent LGBT themes. Thus, I don't see a good reason to remove Kinky Boots from VA.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:12, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

• Correcting myself. I guess I don't know musical theatre. I looked at Hairspray (musical)  5 and Hair (musical)  5 did not check most others. Both A Chorus Line  5 and The Producers (musical)  5 are tagged WP:LGBT. So we have 4 of 29 at musical theatre. I do think musical theater has the opportunity to be one of the few subjects that gives LGBT overrepresentation (>10%). Keeping Kinky Boots would keep 4 (since they don't currently tag Cabaret). 20th century Drama has 4 of 28 tagged LGBT: (Angels in America  5, Cat on a Hot Tin Roof  5, A Streetcar Named Desire  5, The Vagina Monologues  5), which is where I think musical theatre should be.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:18, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  Tony, can you please just accept that I don't agree with your rationale for keeping Kinky Boots on here and move on? I'm starting to get sick of these paragraph-long replies. And no, musical theatre should stay in the specific musical works section. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:03, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

1. Oops, I did not mean put musical theater in drama. I meant that drama having 4 (over the 10% threshold which would be 3) of 28 LGBT-tagged articles is where I think musical theatre should be. I think musical theatre and drama are not above the representative level, something is wrong. However, I realize that Cabaret may count as a fifth LGBT-tagged for musical theatre. I think Kinky Boots may almost be the queerest musical we've got, but queer theme obviously not the deciding factor on vitality.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:48, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

   Drop it. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:07, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Screenplay  5

An important part of filmmaking. Place under Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Arts#Filmmaking.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 04:44, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 05:56, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
3. --LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 07:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:38, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
5. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:49, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss