Talk:Irish slaves myth

NPOV

This article lacks an impartial tone. FrunkSpace (talk) 10:33, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

You will need to be a lot more specific. I also recommend reading this talkpage and its archives before commenting.Acroterion (talk) 12:17, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Seconded, this is an extremely biased article on a complex topic. Just because the Irish slaves were allegedly not treated as badly as African slaves does not make it a "myth". I think the entire article needs a rewrite, beginning with the Title. Or at least cite some sources with opposing pov. --Jingle38 (talk) 04:55, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

This is missing the point entirely. It's not about how the "Irish slaves" were treated as compared to African slaves, it's how chattel slavery in America is conflated with indentured servitude. For starters. This has been gone over many times, as the archives will attest - Alison ^talk 19:00, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Slavery is slavery it's disgusting that you're trying to compare the two and invalidate grievances that non-Africans might also have. Disgraceful Dan27032 (talk) 15:10, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Slavery is slavery, and indentured servitude isn't it. I suggest reading the article. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:17, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Myth origin

The lede says the myth 'has been in circulation since the 1990s', while in the article body, under 'Origins and propagation', it says it was popular amongst Young Irelanders in the 19th century like John Mitchel (before skipping to the present day). I think a bit more clarity and information on the history of the myth would be useful to the reader. Did it just disappear throughout the 20th century until the 1990s? Where did it appear from in the 90s? Was 'They Were White and They Were Slaves' drawing on an older mythology? You get the idea. LastDodo (talk) 14:21, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Indentured Servitude/Slavery

All of the articles I’ve read on Irish Slavery seem to only be able to dispute that the Irish weren’t the “first” slaves or that they were “Indentured Servants”. Which, as we all know, was tantamount to slavery itself. There were no regulations or consequences for how the Irish were treated or what types of labors were allowed. They were sold, they were shipped and they were used like any other slave of the time. Many profited from their sale. Many except for themselves. So, if you say that that the claim of the Irish being slaves is “false” because they weren’t the “first” slaves as the meme says or they were actually “indentured servants”… you are part of the problem in regards to the history and plight of the Irish in the 17th century. The1Kraken (talk) 03:55, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Well indentured servitude was in no way limited to the Irish, indeed by numbers there were probably more English or Welsh or Scottish or German. And, no the Irish were not first, nor the first apprentices, nor child laborers, nor work-house debt workers, nor unpaid women's work, etc. all these unfair systems inflicted across nations of poor people. But you are missing the point entirely, they were still not in hereditary chattel slavery, generation upon generation. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:53, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

You're missing the point entirely. A comparison to chattel slavery is not assumed when looking at the Irish experience. The article title is factually incorrect and it assumes an argument that only you are making. Reduce it to the core issue: irish slavery and servitude. The article should then discuss the degrees and conditions faced by the Irish. Irish people exist as more than just a tool by which to measure other people's pain. 2601:601:8581:2E20:ECB8:129B:EAA:E6B (talk) 04:01, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

It's been interesting listening to someone who's a self-professed 4th generation American of Irish heritage, attempt to speak for actual Irish people. And refer to an actual person from Ireland as <checks notes> an "old white bidd[y]". Biddy, as you likely know, is a derogatory term for an Irish woman, specifically. Hard to have a serious dialogue around that, eh? - Alison ^talk 06:15, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Hines photograph

The Hines photograph is from 1910. It is not being used as "fair use", it is in the public domain. The second image, uploaded by Hesperian Nguyen, is being legitimately used under fair use terms, and complies in full with WP's fair use policy. Specifically, use is allowed under WP:NFC#CS and WP:NFCI. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:22, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

"Non-free images that reasonably could be replaced by free content images are not suitable for Wikipedia."

As much as I would hate doing it, I (or anyone else with Photoshop) could make a racist meme incorporating the Irish slaves myth for illustrative purposes, then release it under a free license. As it stands, the text in the meme is not public domain (it is too long).

The Hines photograph would not make sense in the context of the article without the meme incorporating it. Thus, I removed it, even though it is in the public domain.

Respectfully, Bremps... 14:27, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't think that's a valid interpretation of the policy, to be honest. It would essentially be WP:OR. To quote from WP:NFC#CS:

Two of the most common circumstances in which an item of non-free content can meet the contextual significance criterion are:

• where the item is itself the subject of sourced commentary in the article, or
• where only by including such non-free content, can the reader identify an object, style, or behavior, that is a subject of discussion in the article.

The online memes, including this one, are discussed in the article, and it is necessary to depict the memes that are being discussed. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 18:19, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. We could move the meme featuring the green fist (which is freely licensed) in the lede down to the body instead. Bremps... 20:20, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

@Bastun Do we have a consensus? Bremps... 20:33, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm not clear on what you're proposing. I'm not too bothered about placement, but as far as I'm concerned, the Hines photo and the meme based off it are valid for inclusion and should be retained. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:09, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Concur with this - Alison ^talk 19:16, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Not a myth 174.206.168.222 (talk) 14:55, 20 April 2024 (UTC)